geem
Well-Known Member
Maybe that would br the case if you were the first proven vessel to ever have a battery fire that was attributed to lifepo4. Bearing in mind we are talking of all boats worldwide, not just in the UK. There simply aren't any
Self install of LifePo4 and what requirements for insurance (UK)
- Thread starter davethedog
- Start date
billskip
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter there aren't any.
The terms of the insurance policy/company are what you agree to.
No good saying "but I thought "....
geem
Well-Known Member
So what is your risk?
billskip
Well-Known Member
My risk is a third party and /or my personal loss, making a claim/being refused at times of necessity
If an insurance company's stipulation is ignored, what my mate Mr geem on ybw says is not going to have much sway.
There maybe a first one day, and you just maybe the first, it maybe lottery odds, but without insurance cover all risk no matter how slight could occur.
It's why insurance is such a successful money making machine.
I really don’t understand any of the posts here that seem to me suggest that because it hasn't happened it won't, because science and history say so.
This is about the title of this thread, insurance cover/ requirements, not about what has happened in the real world.
geem
Well-Known Member
You are entitled to do exactly what you like. There is nobody stopping you, however, from getting on the phone and actually talking to your insurer and asking them what the perceived additional risk is associated with a lifepo4 installation. Ask them for some data.
There are some horrendous electrical installations on boat with lead batteries. They don't cause much problem. But they aren't risk free. I suspect the insurers are using this as an opportunity to have a professional electrical technician cast an eye over the electrics and probably make some modifications to make a crappy installation safer. Or, they could just be ill informed, they read the Daily Mail and saw that somebody burnt there house down when their E bike burst into flames. It might be an 'oh shit' moment where they thought we better not have those lithium batteries on boats we cover.
The international institute of marina surveyors have no recorded examples of lifepo4 fires. They had 90 fires on super yachts in an 12 month period put down to other lithium chemistries. Such thing as E foils, scooters, Bikes, etc
You can either do as you are told like a good boy or challenge the insurance industry that is trying to make more money out of us all. They need education and stroppy customers hassling them to make them change their money grabbing ways. Rant over
billskip
Well-Known Member
I understand your frustration, and I don't disagree, but ever year your previous period of insurance was a waste of money if no claim, every year you future premium could be a waste of money, but insurance has become an obligation so is necessary.You are entitled to do exactly what you like. There is nobody stopping you, however, from getting on the phone and actually talking to your insurer and asking them what the perceived additional risk is associated with a lifepo4 installation. Ask them for some data.
There are some horrendous electrical installations on boat with lead batteries. They don't cause much problem. But they aren't risk free. I suspect the insurers are using this as an opportunity to have a professional electrical technician cast an eye over the electrics and probably make some modifications to make a crappy installation safer. Or, they could just be ill informed, they read the Daily Mail and saw that somebody burnt there house down when their E bike burst into flames. It might be an 'oh shit' moment where they thought we better not have those lithium batteries on boats we cover.
The international institute of marina surveyors have no recorded examples of lifepo4 fires. They had 90 fires on super yachts in an 12 month period put down to other lithium chemistries. Such thing as E foils, scooters, Bikes, etc
You can either do as you are told like a good boy or challenge the insurance industry that is trying to make more money out of us all. They need education and stroppy customers hassling them to make them change their money grabbing ways. Rant over
If you choose as some do to pay a premium that is fraught with false information just to provide a document to satisfy a legal obligation, would you be happy to be parked next to them with the risk of damage, however caused, not paying for your loss?I think your rant may just take an alternative perspective
Lucy52
Well-Known Member
I believe that if your insurance company invalidates the insurance on your boat, for whatever reason, they will still pay out legitimate third party claims. Just not your own.
This would leave you with the possible loss of your boat, wreck recovery, your own medical and legal fees, and loads of hassle.
The underwriters decide exactly what risk they are willing to shoulder, and it may make no sense to you. It is based on a statistical calculation of risk, the value insured, and experience.
They are in business to make a profit, which they do. Even your pension may be invested in them, or even by them.
This would leave you with the possible loss of your boat, wreck recovery, your own medical and legal fees, and loads of hassle.
The underwriters decide exactly what risk they are willing to shoulder, and it may make no sense to you. It is based on a statistical calculation of risk, the value insured, and experience.
They are in business to make a profit, which they do. Even your pension may be invested in them, or even by them.
billskip
Well-Known Member
Maybe so, but what they pay is their decision, ie: writing your assets off and giving you what they consider is a fair payment. This of course can be challenged, but you are transformed from an innocent party, to one being left with complications, worry and hassle through no fault of your own.
Happens often enough to cars.
Happens often enough to cars.
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Ts&Cs have all sorts of unenforceable crap these days. Unfair contracts are a well trodden legal path and in this instance the contract is exceptionally one sided.
An insurance company would need to stand up in court and explain the exclusion (which is based on no evidence whatsoever). I doubt even they think they’d enforce it.
billskip
Well-Known Member
As usual all theory, you run your risk, ok with me...there are some, many not wishing to pay up front and then.pay again to argue the toss..
But of course there will always be the argumentative type that try to encourage others.
aqua_sax
Well-Known Member
This is what they say, of course, but how does that square with the apparent actual risk (total number of LiFePO4 fires on boats / total number of LiFePO4 installations) for these installations? For the mathematically minded, the denominator should probably include years of installation, and so become something cumbersome like installation.years, but the real point is the numerator appears to be zero, which means, based on the evidence to date, there is zero risk. Yes, only ever seeing white swans doesn't prove there isn't a black one round the corner, but if insurers claim they use statistical calculation of risk, then they cannot add in a seeing round corners or clairvoyance factor.
...of what they can get you to pay. I once had the misfortune to hear a now very distant family member, a Lloyd's broker, explain (on a mobile phone back in the 90s while at a family event) to a client that his premium had to go up by a amount that just happened to equal a recent payout to the client. I don't think the client agreed...
geem
Well-Known Member
If you are happy being told you can't self install lithium then that's great for you. I have self installed lithium. But since I am qualified mechanical and electrical engineer with 35 years in the business, I don't fall foul of the issue. I would still suggest those that are competent do so should lobby their insurance company to gain cover for self installed LifePo4.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Motor insurers are required by law to do but am I not sure that extends to other types of insurance.
Also in the former case if the claim is excluded, such as for driving under the influence of alcohol, then there are plenty of examples of the insurance company trying to recover the amount paid to third parties from the policy holder.
billskip
Well-Known Member
This is not about whether I'm happy, it's about the possibility of someone falling fowl of a situation.
The OP has quoted his insurance terms, ok try other insurance....no problem.
I've no doubt whatsoever LifePo4 is safer that a brick outhouse, but as I'm paying money for an agreement, I respect the terms of that agreement.
I will of course think extra highly about what you post in future due to your qualifications ..I expect you have an iPhone aswell....
lustyd
Well-Known Member
Statistically the risk right now is zero. That’s kind of the point. There’s no getting around that until actual problems occur. Out of thousands of LiFePo4 i stalls, zero have had issues. Zero divided by thousands makes a risk of zero, its simple maths.
I worked on risk calculations for air traffic control systems in my career, the maths is very simple.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
How much does it cost to take to court? Big companies can strong this out, and spend fortunes on legal fees - which (above small claims court) you could be liable for if you lose.
And when if win in first court, they may take to appeal - with much more legal fees at risk.
And this could take many years.
geem
Well-Known Member
They aren't going to. The ABYC technical committee in the USA (the body responsible for lithium standards on boats) couldn't set one a light. They tried everything with all their expertise to cause a fire with lifepo4 batteries and it wasn't possible. Rod Collins, a member of that committee, has a running bet on his website that nobody can provide him with a photo of a lifepo4 battery alight in a boat. Nobody has met this bet in over 10 years.
The weight of evidence against lifepo4 batteries causing fires is overwhelming. What are the odds of your boat being the first?
Unlike lead batteries the cells have a management system that deals with overcharge and over heat, two possible causes of fire in other lithium chemistries. Even when the bms is removed and the cells are overcharged or heated, you can't get them to cause fire. Nasty fumes yes, but not fire.
Lithium batteries tend to get installed to a higher standard than lead batteries. Fuse and isolator per battery, smart shunt and busbars for the system. These enhanced installation features assist in making the system more robust.
Insurance companies are taking the mickey. Tackle them on mass and their stupid rules will go away.
billskip
Well-Known Member
They aren't going to ....what?..
You really don't understand, the insurance companies lawyers and underwriters have your money and they refuse to pay over a technicality, can you afford to challenge it?
Could take years to even get to court.
what goes on in USofA is of no interest to the insurers in the UK, and they are not going to take my word that somebody on the internet told me all is tickertyboo,they are only interested in financial gain, even if that gain is by reducing their pament.
aqua_sax
Well-Known Member
I've just noticed something rather curious. As previously posted, I have recently changed my insurance from one that excluded DIY LiFePO4 DIY installation to one that will allow it. But the odd thing is, reviewing the IPIDs (Insurance Product Information Documents), certainly the underwriters, and very probably the 'service providers' are one and the same. Go figure...
lustyd
Well-Known Member
That’s not how the UK legal system works. If anything, British judges take a dim view of those who think it does.
