sea toilet (seacock)

[btlynn]

Sorry for my ignorance but I have a new to me boat, a Flipper760.
My concern is that this boat has a sea toilet but I can not find a seacock in or around the toilet area.
I have not experienced a boat with such a toilet before but I would have thought that some means of preventing the prospect of flooding in the event of a failed valve in the toilet system would be needed.
Can anyone please educate me on this subject.
Regards
Brian

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[sailorman]

follow the pipes perhaps?.

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[HeadMistress]

Unless the toilet is one that's designed to use pressurized flush water from the onboard fresh water supply (or a previous owner has stupidly connected a raw water toilet to it), there has to be a 3/4" seacock on the other end of the intake hose. The question is, where?

Your thinking that it--and any overboard seacock too--should be readily accessible in or near the head is spot on, Brian. But unfortunatelyyou're one of a dying breed. The majority of new boat owners today don't really want a BOAT any more, they want a floating condo that allows life aboard to be as close to living ashore as possible. And in boat builders' efforts to attract that market, safety has given way to decor...and because seacocks hardly enhance decor, they've taken to hiding thru-hulls/seacocks in all but inaccessible places--behind drawers, under settees and berths, in engine rooms...just about anywhere EXCEPT where they should be--in the head, immediately accessible.

As for any direct overboard seacock, there are two possibilities: 1. the toilet doesn't flush overboard, but only into a holding tank. 2. That seacock is also hidden under something, possibly nowhere near the intake seacock.

If it only flushes into a holding tank--if the boat even has a holding tank--there should be a deck pumpout fitting somewhere on the side deck. It looks like the water and fuel fills, but "waste" will be stamped into the flange.

So ll I can tell you is, start hunting. If the toilet brings in flush water, it has to come from somewhere...if it pushes bowl contents out, it has to go somewhere!



<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[angusmacgregor]

Many boats are finished like this. Security will depend on the water level. If the upper end of the skin fitting is above the waterline just look after the hose clips (two). If the upper edge is below water line then remove skin fiiting and install a replacement with stop valve. And two clips of course.


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[Althorne]

Ask the vendor would be the easiest solution????????

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[poter]

Peggie,

Maybe it just goes round & round?

poter

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[HeadMistress]

Oh I do sincerely hope not!

Btw...there have been some recirculating toilets in the past...one is even made today by Thetford, though I can't imagine why!

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[catmandoo]

has any one read about the Scandinavian dry toilets where you just shovel in a little tobsoil and then bugs begin to work breaking result down to humus . environmentally friendly . I wonder if there is a potential application to boats . No sea cocks - only a shovel or screw conveyor needed - may also take in tea bags

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[HeadMistress]

Composting toilets

There are two made for boats in North America--the Sun-Mar "Ecolet," made in Canada (http://www.sun-mar.com), and a somewhat different design made in the US called the Airhead (http://www.airheadtoilet.com/Index/Page_1x.html)

IMO, composting toilets are an option worth considering for boats on "no discharge" inland waters where the ONLY other alternative is a holding tank...but I don't think it makes any sense to store waste aboard in any form--holding tank, composter, or incinerator (I definitely do NOT like those!)--in coastal waters where the discharge of treated waste is legal or at sea where it can go directly overboard. Yes, the composter holds a lot of dried solid matter, but any liquids that cannot be evaporated must be drained for composting to occur (wet soggy organic material doesn't compost, but just rots and putrifies)...they cannot legally be drained overboard except at sea, so they must be held...giving you just another "portapotty" that must taken ashore or out to sea beyond the "3 mile limit" to dispose of, or a holding tank that still must be maintained the same as any other holding tank. Nor can the compost be dumped overboard legally except at sea.

So unless you are on inland "no discharge" waters, a Type I MSD such as the Raritan Lectra/San that treats waste and discharges it overboard legally makes far more sense to me, especially when you consider that both the price and the power requirements are just about the same or even higher for composters as for the Lectra/San, and both are equally environmentally friendly.


<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[catmandoo]

Re: Composting toilets

Common sense dictates that the biggest problem with toilet waste is good old H2 0.
The rest I imagine is a small quantity of solid matter . So how does one get rid of the water ?

the traditional methods of removing water are,

chuck over board
boiling
freezing etc

The last two involve use of that other necessity, energy if you discount muscle power .

so what can we do ? if seacocks are a hazard one option available is bisexual urinals in cockpit (excuse pun ) draining over board
and a solids type loo with a heating coil to evaporate moisture fed from engine cooling water plus a screw conveyor manual of solar powered to a unit to compress into solid bricks at two month intervals depending on size of crew . Bricks can then be sent by post to your local politician - Blair or Bush who will no doubt be familiar with disposal


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[HeadMistress]

Re: Composting toilets

<LOL>! Your approach is certainly creative enough! But except for your method of disposing of the bricks (which, btw, brings back wonderful memories of something some friends and I did while in college) , unfortunately won't work.

Because solid waste is 75% liquid, the cockpit drain or other solutions won't solve the problem...nor is legal to dump any collection containers down them...so not only urine, but excess liquids from solids must either be evaporated or drained off. And peat moss must be added to aid in the drying.

Unfortunately just a heating coil alone won't dry out the solids, it'll just "boil" them...the odor would be ungodly! Air is needed to dry out the solids--for two reasons: air is what accomplishes evaporation, and also is required to keep the material aerobic...otherwise, it just rots and stinks.

Real common dictates that waste shouldn't be stored aboard in any form, but should be treated to kill bacteria in waters where people are likely to swim or that's a municipal water supply and sent overboard.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[catmandoo]

Re: Composting toilets

yes , was just wishful thinking . Ufortunately just watching England beating Scotland in Rugby . Scotland giving them a hard time but not scoring try's .. lesson learnt however - never give up

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[catmandoo]

Re: Composting toilets

Sorry forgot about necessary air . Whole unit for solids would be complete with comfy wooden seat mounted on an enclosure with a paddle wheel to stir and air bellows operated by an air turbine powered by wave action in tube located outside pulpit at head of boat .Unit will have sufficient dwell time for bugs to act by clever use of levers and inclined fluid and oscillating bed trays within to give muckle shoogle action. Considering reflux at middle stages for large capacity units . Solids when dry are quite small in volume so for a crew of two would only need to dispose of bricks once a month. In light airs and zero swell simple crank handle on side like old fashioned gramophone would do

Prototype stainless steel and teak complete with screw conveyor , timer, compactor and brick mold but production model will be in GRP and ABS although teak seat would be warmer. In due course I will advise when patent taken out ,meanwhile would point out that cockpit method of disposal was only for fluids .
Please note that I have tested conventional units from outside hull with snorkel and mask to view dispersion and can advise that only visible effluent was white shards of paper. Aerobic design would of course include paper too thus making it completely self contained .

Had previously considered simple tray and dog poo (Sainsbury's ) bags but rejected as thought SWIMBO would object

Ah well all's well that ends well

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[johnneale]

I had a BallHead toilet on a little trimaran many many years ago which used no skin fittings at all and was bolted directly to the bottom of the hull, - When open, you could see the fishes - I used to drop the echosounder transducer through the hole when anchoring.

The plastic loo had a large rubber diaghram for the lid which was used to suck water into the bowl on the uplift, and blast it all out again on the downstroke. There was always some water in it, and it used to gurgle as we went along, but it never overflowed -

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[HeadMistress]

Not many have even heard of the BallHead...you're first I've "met" who ever actually owned one. As you said, the lid was the pump...nothing to maintain, just replace the lid when it wore out. Amazingly simple, and it worked very well. If it were still around today, it could overtake the Lavac in popularity.



<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[mayfox]

I have the same problem with my Matilda 20. It has an old Lavac toilet installed without any seacocks. I would be very interested if anyone could put me right on this as its starting to worry me.

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[HeadMistress]

Hmmmm...NO seacocks? No flush water intake thru-hull OR discharge thru-hull? That's very interesting! 'Cuz there has to be a source of flush water...so unless there's a dedicated tank for it (or, God forbid, a misguided PO has connected it to the potable water supply), there has be to an intake thru-hull/seacock. However, if there's a holding tank, it is possible that there's no discharge thru-hull seacock....but the flush HAS to go SOMEWHERE.

Have you been using the toilet? Are there any hoses connected to it? If any flush water comes in and waste goes out when you pump, there must be. Trace them to their destinations...I suspect you'll find seacocks. Boat builders have taken to hiding them in the damnedest, most inaccessible locations because they detract from boat decor.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[mayfox]

Thanks for the reply,

There are both inlet and outlet pipes that go straight thru the Hull but without Seacocks.

The Lavac uses the Vacum to take water in from the Sea and then flushes it out.

My problem is that I cannot replace or get rid of the horrible loo without taking the boat out of the water.

I dont know why the WC was first installed without seacocks but it is proving to be a problem.

The only way around it that I can sea is to cut the inlet and outlet pipes at low tide and fit Sea Cocks on the remaining few inches of pipes.

Thanks again

Paul






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[roger]

A major reason for having seacocks is that most heads are fitted ( in sailboats) below sea level and siphoning can sink the boat. So use seacocks, big inverted pipe loops and siphon breakers.
Flipper (excuse the rude word) suggests a power boat) If so your heads may be fitted above water level and the problem is much less acute. Nevertheless I think you should fit seacocks and all the rest.

<hr width=100% size=1>Roger

 

[HeadMistress]

I misunderstood what you meant, Paul...when you said "no seacocks," I thought you meant no thru-hulls.

You're right...it's suicidal to have below-waterline holes in the boat that cannot be closed, even when connected to devices that are above the waterline. 'cuz hose/pipe connections at thru-hulls can--and DO!--fail. In fact, seacocks left open when no one is aboard is the leading cause of boats sinking in their slips.

A really off-the-wall thought, if you don't want to pay for a haulout: could you ground the boat in shallow water with a soft bottom...or perhaps put it where it'll be out of the water at low tide long enough to let you install a seacock, then let the tide refloat it? I only thought of it because I've had friends who've done this to clean their bottoms.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987