Save Weir Wood Sailing Club

[RivalRedwing]

Like cyclists it only takes a few!

Possibly some research is required into Lycra and Wetsuit materials to see if they affect the behaviour of normally reasonable people….

and owners of white transit vans, BMW's and Audi's too

 

[ylop]

Interesting reading. It does seem as though the new owner is nit picking, so what is his ulterior motive? My guess is he wants to run a club for extra profit using the existing premises.

My guess is you don’t make money leasing to a sailing club, but you might make money by providing pay-to-use facilities, possibly with a wider range of activities. If you can add on glamping or holiday chalets you could have a very different commercial model - many sailing clubs seem to have exclusive use of reservoirs/lakes but actually only be open for a few hours a week. We’ve no if the club have been approached about being part of any future solution or have been so defensive or hostile that the landlord isn’t interested in pursuing it.

The response from the RYA does seem to go against the grain of sailing being an inclusive sport.

Are you misunderstanding what inclusive means or have I missed a part of the story where the landlord is trying to “evict” them because they encourage women, minorities, disabled people to sail etc?

To not give advice on how to defend a club from a vexatious owner does seem at odd to the aims of the RYA. It certainly makes me feel they should no longer have my annual membership fee.

Well, I don’t think that says they didn’t give advice, it says they won’t get involved in the detail. That seems reasonable to me - especially since the club admit they have breached the lease (albeit in trivial ways). Is it a good use of RYA members money to get into a very expensive legal battle (their legal team would not do litigious work themselves - it’s not their expertise) over one specific lease? Or are they better to challenge systematic issues that affect large numbers of sailors.

 

[stranded]

Often tell people they can't fish on the Norfolk Broads.. it is closed season until the 16 th June.
It's also illegal on the broads to fish from a motor or sail powered boat while underway, or moored in a navigable channel.
Reminding canoes and paddleboarders they need to pay broads tax or be a member of the British canoeing union is something I also do. Doesn't matter if it's just an inflatable, if it floats and you can get on it, there's tax to pay..

Unless that’s your job, I imagine a fair few tell you a thing or two in reply.

 

[benjenbav]

Looks like they've tried that route - from a past AGM:

"xxx asked if the RYA are giving advice and <ctte member> commented that it is not practical for them to advise on particular cases"

https://wwsc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/WWSC-AGM-26-November-23-Issue-1.pdf

I looked at attachment to the original post and thought that, because of the possibility of there being more than one side to the story, it would take a good deal of research to understand which protagonist is more in the right.

But I’m just a member of the public who didn’t even know where Weir Wood was.

For the RYA to glibly say that it’s not practical for them to comment on particular cases does rather make one ask what on earth do they do?

Perhaps they promise to learn lessons after the event in the manner of so many failing bureaucracies.

 

[benjenbav]

My guess is you don’t make money leasing to a sailing club, but you might make money by providing pay-to-use facilities, possibly with a wider range of activities. If you can add on glamping or holiday chalets you could have a very different commercial model - many sailing clubs seem to have exclusive use of reservoirs/lakes but actually only be open for a few hours a week. We’ve no if the club have been approached about being part of any future solution or have been so defensive or hostile that the landlord isn’t interested in pursuing it.

Are you misunderstanding what inclusive means or have I missed a part of the story where the landlord is trying to “evict” them because they encourage women, minorities, disabled people to sail etc?

Well, I don’t think that says they didn’t give advice, it says they won’t get involved in the detail. That seems reasonable to me - especially since the club admit they have breached the lease (albeit in trivial ways). Is it a good use of RYA members money to get into a very expensive legal battle (their legal team would not do litigious work themselves - it’s not their expertise) over one specific lease? Or are they better to challenge systematic issues that affect large numbers of sailors.

I agree with much of this post. WRT the issue of the RYA not offering legal representation on an individual lease, I think that’s also a very fair point and quite right.

However, the quote from the RYA saying that it’s not practical to comment on a particular case suggests to me a generic brush-off.

Because all legal cases turn on their own facts I think it would have been more constructive for the RYA to have said either that they would look into the facts and discuss it further (and, perhaps, discuss it with the lawyers that the club appears to have instructed already) or to have been clear that that’s not an area that is covered either by the RYA’s expertise or its budget.

Not the sort of weasel words we hear daily from politicians and bureaucrats cornered by an interviewer on R4’s Today programme.

 

[Mister E]

Unfortunately the if the rya say anything on this problem it could be used by the landlord. Their legal lot will twist anything said for their own purpose.
So the rya is being clever and not making any public statements about this.

 

[northwind]

Unfortunately it looks like the landlord is using the approach of legal attrition to force the sailing club to go bust due to legal costs. Not a lot that can be done if he has deep enough pockets to drain them of their reserves.

 

[Mister E]

Unfortunately it looks like the landlord is using the approach of legal attrition to force the sailing club to go bust due to legal costs. Not a lot that can be done if he has deep enough pockets to drain them of their reserves.

Unfortunately thar seems to be the case.

 

[lustyd]

Unfortunately it looks like the landlord is using the approach of legal attrition to force the sailing club to go bust due to legal costs. Not a lot that can be done if he has deep enough pockets to drain them of their reserves.

The sailing club must have a lawyer on their membership, I'd have thought most of what's going on can be solved with a letter. If it were me I'd write the letters for free out of spite and make darned sure the lease expires before the landlord gets anything they want.

 

[ylop]

However, the quote from the RYA saying that it’s not practical to comment on a particular case suggests to me a generic brush-off.

Bear in mind that what is implied to be a quote from club committee minutes is likely hearsay passed through at least two minds - the club member who said them and the minute secretary who summarised the version the member recounted. I don’t think “not practical to comment on individual cases” is different from:

to have been clear that that’s not an area that is covered either by the RYA’s expertise or its budget.

 

[ylop]

The sailing club must have a lawyer on their membership, I'd have thought most of what's going on can be solved with a letter. If it were me I'd write the letters for free out of spite and make darned sure the lease expires before the landlord gets anything they want.

The complaint seems to be the landlord has a better lawyer! It may well be that there is a lawyer, but are the commercial property specialist? Do they deal in litigation? How long and how many stroppy letters have been exchanged already. The club appear to admit some potential breaches of the lease terms (albeit trivial ones). Now what’s trivial to the club, and what matters to the landlord may be very different. it may well be that a club member lawyer has said “we can fight this but it’s going to take a lot of time and cost and risk” so we can’t do it probono.

 

[lustyd]

I was thinking more that if they’re playing dirty I’d rather play compliant for 40 years than let them win through litigation that bankrupts the club. Litigation only goes to court if you can’t agree, a letter saying sorry ends it in most instances. There are only so many complaints they can make without it looking like harassment.

 

[ashtead]

It looks to me like a factual dispute as to whether the tenants have complied with terms of lease eg the repairing obligations and whether these matters are the tenants or landlord obligations maybe. Such disputes are often complex turning on facts but also where it exists decided case law on meaning of words.
You would have thought the issues given the surveys mentioned are clearly define so if these are indeed tenant liabilities maybe the club just doesn’t have the funds to make good? I have no inside knowledge of case but having been involved in few L&T high court cases on commercial tenant repairing disputes eg window replacement in office blocks etc ,asbestos removal in shopping centres etc given the stated £44k spent it must be fairly well advanced court wise if county court. Presumably the club by now having taken leading counsels views on merits of case but if not they need to get their solicitors to instruct Brick court chambers or suchlike for an early view as to merits on basis it’s a lease construction issue . Maybe they have already and don’t like opinion? This club is in a prosperous are near Forest Row etc so I would have thought members have access to good external advice but you never know .

 

[ylop]

You would have thought the issues given the surveys mentioned are clearly define so if these are indeed tenant liabilities maybe the club just doesn’t have the funds to make good? I have no inside knowledge of case but having been involved in few L&T high court cases on commercial tenant repairing disputes eg window replacement in office blocks etc ,asbestos removal in shopping centres etc given the stated £44k spent it must be fairly well advanced court wise if county court.

I was intrigued where you found this detail - of course it was in the minutes of the AGM! If you read the whole section this was clearly a (now) former member who bought out the lease and has a very different view of how the club should run and water should be used.

 

[B27]

Inland dinghy sailing is not as popular as it was.
We have lots of clubs, most of which struggle to put a decent fleet on the water.

A lot of clubs are leasing a controlling interest on a very expensive asset.
The owners of these assets don't understand that clubs don't make loads of money, there is not a huge pot of gold to be extracted from dinghy sailing.
There is much more money to be made from trout fishing or whatever.

A lot of inland sailing clubs have mutated from being genuine amateur members' clubs to being quite commercial with paid staff and 'customers' who are not 'members'.
It's all very messy and complex and varies from one pond to the next, but with common themes running through.
Lots of 'committee people' who are keen on promoting 'their club' above the greater good of 'sailing' generally.

 

[WoodyP]

I know nothing of this club, but was involved in a professional capacity with the rent review of facilities at a large inland water. The club had atrophied with a committee that ran it as a private club for themselves. A reasonable rent was proposed which would have required them to up the membership fees and start inviting more people to use the facilities. This was resisted until we ended up in a rent tribunal. They lost, the committee were ousted and a new regime invigorated the club and provided a reasonable return for the landlords investment.

 

[captainhaddock]

Save Weir Wood Sailing Club

People should do their own research but, on the face of it, this looks worth supporting.

Supported, but disappointed with the RYA,

 

[ylop]

Inland dinghy sailing is not as popular as it was.
We have lots of clubs, most of which struggle to put a decent fleet on the water.

A lot of clubs are leasing a controlling interest on a very expensive asset.
The owners of these assets don't understand that clubs don't make loads of money, there is not a huge pot of gold to be extracted from dinghy sailing.
There is much more money to be made from trout fishing or whatever.

A lot of inland sailing clubs have mutated from being genuine amateur members' clubs to being quite commercial with paid staff and 'customers' who are not 'members'.
It's all very messy and complex and varies from one pond to the next, but with common themes running through.
Lots of 'committee people' who are keen on promoting 'their club' above the greater good of 'sailing' generally.

Many clubs have a “this is what we’ve always done” mentality and many sailing clubs aren’t that keen on “other sports” using “their water”.

As a general rule most inland water sailing clubs should have paddle boarders, kayakers, wild swimmers, kite surfers, keen to join to make use of storage, changing, beer drinking, and potentially safety boat facilities!

Motorised water sports, even e-foiling may be in conflict with some or all of those but potentially that means where they are allowed there is more £ to be made! There might be money to be made from fishing but that doesn’t usually have to exclude sailing.

Across all sports there is a drift away from a “club culture” towards a “pay to play” approach. Many sailing clubs only actually use the water for 1 day and 1 evening a week six months of the year…. That a lot of wasted opportunity.

We don’t know the story with this club but they must be regretting not having bought out the ownership when the opportunity arose.

 

[B27]

Lots of people will always have lots of advice about clubs diversifying and catering for new trendy 'sports' like paddleboarding and wild swimming. It was the same when windsurfing/boardsailing came along in the 80s.
I've been a member of a few clubs, due to moving around with work, and the clubs which remain strong seem to be those which are focussed on racing, and those which provide yacht moorings.

Looking at the RYA club finder page, there are not that many dinghy racing clubs in the area, and vast numbers of people live in the area, so it seems to be a problem that what these clubs offer is just not very attractive to the public.

If you look at the membership of some of the more successful clubs a bit further afield, I think you might find that a lot of people are making choices about where they sail and not just going to their nearest reservoir. But even so, I think the reality is, numbers are down.

 

[lustyd]

If you look at the membership of some of the more successful clubs a bit further afield, I think you might find that a lot of people are making choices about where they sail and not just going to their nearest reservoir

Of course, it could just as easily be the demographic in the area not being traditional yachting types. The RYA have a mandate to increase the reach of sailing so they should be disproportionately supporting such clubs while providing less support to the self sustaining ones. Of course, it's run by committee so the reality is that people go where the success is and take credit where it's available.