RivalRedwing
Well-known member
and owners of white transit vans, BMW's and Audi's too
Save Weir Wood Sailing Club
- Thread starter Mark-1
- Start date
ylop
Well-known member
My guess is you don’t make money leasing to a sailing club, but you might make money by providing pay-to-use facilities, possibly with a wider range of activities. If you can add on glamping or holiday chalets you could have a very different commercial model - many sailing clubs seem to have exclusive use of reservoirs/lakes but actually only be open for a few hours a week. We’ve no if the club have been approached about being part of any future solution or have been so defensive or hostile that the landlord isn’t interested in pursuing it.
Are you misunderstanding what inclusive means or have I missed a part of the story where the landlord is trying to “evict” them because they encourage women, minorities, disabled people to sail etc?
Well, I don’t think that says they didn’t give advice, it says they won’t get involved in the detail. That seems reasonable to me - especially since the club admit they have breached the lease (albeit in trivial ways). Is it a good use of RYA members money to get into a very expensive legal battle (their legal team would not do litigious work themselves - it’s not their expertise) over one specific lease? Or are they better to challenge systematic issues that affect large numbers of sailors.
stranded
Well-known member
Unless that’s your job, I imagine a fair few tell you a thing or two in reply.
benjenbav
Well-known member
I looked at attachment to the original post and thought that, because of the possibility of there being more than one side to the story, it would take a good deal of research to understand which protagonist is more in the right.
But I’m just a member of the public who didn’t even know where Weir Wood was.
For the RYA to glibly say that it’s not practical for them to comment on particular cases does rather make one ask what on earth do they do?
Perhaps they promise to learn lessons after the event in the manner of so many failing bureaucracies.
benjenbav
Well-known member
I agree with much of this post. WRT the issue of the RYA not offering legal representation on an individual lease, I think that’s also a very fair point and quite right.
However, the quote from the RYA saying that it’s not practical to comment on a particular case suggests to me a generic brush-off.
Because all legal cases turn on their own facts I think it would have been more constructive for the RYA to have said either that they would look into the facts and discuss it further (and, perhaps, discuss it with the lawyers that the club appears to have instructed already) or to have been clear that that’s not an area that is covered either by the RYA’s expertise or its budget.
Not the sort of weasel words we hear daily from politicians and bureaucrats cornered by an interviewer on R4’s Today programme.
Mister E
Well-known member
Unfortunately the if the rya say anything on this problem it could be used by the landlord. Their legal lot will twist anything said for their own purpose.
So the rya is being clever and not making any public statements about this.
So the rya is being clever and not making any public statements about this.
northwind
Well-known member
Unfortunately it looks like the landlord is using the approach of legal attrition to force the sailing club to go bust due to legal costs. Not a lot that can be done if he has deep enough pockets to drain them of their reserves.
Mister E
Well-known member
Unfortunately thar seems to be the case.
lustyd
Well-known member
The sailing club must have a lawyer on their membership, I'd have thought most of what's going on can be solved with a letter. If it were me I'd write the letters for free out of spite and make darned sure the lease expires before the landlord gets anything they want.
ylop
Well-known member
Bear in mind that what is implied to be a quote from club committee minutes is likely hearsay passed through at least two minds - the club member who said them and the minute secretary who summarised the version the member recounted. I don’t think “not practical to comment on individual cases” is different from:
ylop
Well-known member
The complaint seems to be the landlord has a better lawyer! It may well be that there is a lawyer, but are the commercial property specialist? Do they deal in litigation? How long and how many stroppy letters have been exchanged already. The club appear to admit some potential breaches of the lease terms (albeit trivial ones). Now what’s trivial to the club, and what matters to the landlord may be very different. it may well be that a club member lawyer has said “we can fight this but it’s going to take a lot of time and cost and risk” so we can’t do it probono.
lustyd
Well-known member
I was thinking more that if they’re playing dirty I’d rather play compliant for 40 years than let them win through litigation that bankrupts the club. Litigation only goes to court if you can’t agree, a letter saying sorry ends it in most instances. There are only so many complaints they can make without it looking like harassment.
ashtead
Well-known member
It looks to me like a factual dispute as to whether the tenants have complied with terms of lease eg the repairing obligations and whether these matters are the tenants or landlord obligations maybe. Such disputes are often complex turning on facts but also where it exists decided case law on meaning of words.
You would have thought the issues given the surveys mentioned are clearly define so if these are indeed tenant liabilities maybe the club just doesn’t have the funds to make good? I have no inside knowledge of case but having been involved in few L&T high court cases on commercial tenant repairing disputes eg window replacement in office blocks etc ,asbestos removal in shopping centres etc given the stated £44k spent it must be fairly well advanced court wise if county court. Presumably the club by now having taken leading counsels views on merits of case but if not they need to get their solicitors to instruct Brick court chambers or suchlike for an early view as to merits on basis it’s a lease construction issue . Maybe they have already and don’t like opinion? This club is in a prosperous are near Forest Row etc so I would have thought members have access to good external advice but you never know .
You would have thought the issues given the surveys mentioned are clearly define so if these are indeed tenant liabilities maybe the club just doesn’t have the funds to make good? I have no inside knowledge of case but having been involved in few L&T high court cases on commercial tenant repairing disputes eg window replacement in office blocks etc ,asbestos removal in shopping centres etc given the stated £44k spent it must be fairly well advanced court wise if county court. Presumably the club by now having taken leading counsels views on merits of case but if not they need to get their solicitors to instruct Brick court chambers or suchlike for an early view as to merits on basis it’s a lease construction issue . Maybe they have already and don’t like opinion? This club is in a prosperous are near Forest Row etc so I would have thought members have access to good external advice but you never know .
ylop
Well-known member
I was intrigued where you found this detail - of course it was in the minutes of the AGM! If you read the whole section this was clearly a (now) former member who bought out the lease and has a very different view of how the club should run and water should be used.
B27
Well-known member
Inland dinghy sailing is not as popular as it was.
We have lots of clubs, most of which struggle to put a decent fleet on the water.
A lot of clubs are leasing a controlling interest on a very expensive asset.
The owners of these assets don't understand that clubs don't make loads of money, there is not a huge pot of gold to be extracted from dinghy sailing.
There is much more money to be made from trout fishing or whatever.
A lot of inland sailing clubs have mutated from being genuine amateur members' clubs to being quite commercial with paid staff and 'customers' who are not 'members'.
It's all very messy and complex and varies from one pond to the next, but with common themes running through.
Lots of 'committee people' who are keen on promoting 'their club' above the greater good of 'sailing' generally.
We have lots of clubs, most of which struggle to put a decent fleet on the water.
A lot of clubs are leasing a controlling interest on a very expensive asset.
The owners of these assets don't understand that clubs don't make loads of money, there is not a huge pot of gold to be extracted from dinghy sailing.
There is much more money to be made from trout fishing or whatever.
A lot of inland sailing clubs have mutated from being genuine amateur members' clubs to being quite commercial with paid staff and 'customers' who are not 'members'.
It's all very messy and complex and varies from one pond to the next, but with common themes running through.
Lots of 'committee people' who are keen on promoting 'their club' above the greater good of 'sailing' generally.
WoodyP
Well-known member
I know nothing of this club, but was involved in a professional capacity with the rent review of facilities at a large inland water. The club had atrophied with a committee that ran it as a private club for themselves. A reasonable rent was proposed which would have required them to up the membership fees and start inviting more people to use the facilities. This was resisted until we ended up in a rent tribunal. They lost, the committee were ousted and a new regime invigorated the club and provided a reasonable return for the landlords investment.
captainhaddock
Member
Supported, but disappointed with the RYA,
ylop
Well-known member
Many clubs have a “this is what we’ve always done” mentality and many sailing clubs aren’t that keen on “other sports” using “their water”.
As a general rule most inland water sailing clubs should have paddle boarders, kayakers, wild swimmers, kite surfers, keen to join to make use of storage, changing, beer drinking, and potentially safety boat facilities!
Motorised water sports, even e-foiling may be in conflict with some or all of those but potentially that means where they are allowed there is more £ to be made! There might be money to be made from fishing but that doesn’t usually have to exclude sailing.
Across all sports there is a drift away from a “club culture” towards a “pay to play” approach. Many sailing clubs only actually use the water for 1 day and 1 evening a week six months of the year…. That a lot of wasted opportunity.
We don’t know the story with this club but they must be regretting not having bought out the ownership when the opportunity arose.
B27
Well-known member
Lots of people will always have lots of advice about clubs diversifying and catering for new trendy 'sports' like paddleboarding and wild swimming. It was the same when windsurfing/boardsailing came along in the 80s.
I've been a member of a few clubs, due to moving around with work, and the clubs which remain strong seem to be those which are focussed on racing, and those which provide yacht moorings.
Looking at the RYA club finder page, there are not that many dinghy racing clubs in the area, and vast numbers of people live in the area, so it seems to be a problem that what these clubs offer is just not very attractive to the public.
If you look at the membership of some of the more successful clubs a bit further afield, I think you might find that a lot of people are making choices about where they sail and not just going to their nearest reservoir. But even so, I think the reality is, numbers are down.
I've been a member of a few clubs, due to moving around with work, and the clubs which remain strong seem to be those which are focussed on racing, and those which provide yacht moorings.
Looking at the RYA club finder page, there are not that many dinghy racing clubs in the area, and vast numbers of people live in the area, so it seems to be a problem that what these clubs offer is just not very attractive to the public.
If you look at the membership of some of the more successful clubs a bit further afield, I think you might find that a lot of people are making choices about where they sail and not just going to their nearest reservoir. But even so, I think the reality is, numbers are down.
lustyd
Well-known member
Of course, it could just as easily be the demographic in the area not being traditional yachting types. The RYA have a mandate to increase the reach of sailing so they should be disproportionately supporting such clubs while providing less support to the self sustaining ones. Of course, it's run by committee so the reality is that people go where the success is and take credit where it's available.