Sara Sutcliffe appointed CEO of the RYA

[Kukri]

No, because the RYA are necessary in terms of certificating instructors for 10 year olds in toppers etc. And ensuring that those instructors can handle their ribs, have first aid qualifications etc to make sure that kids are introduced to the water in the most positive, and safest, way possible.

I don't think we should forget that learning to sail is not like learning to play football, where you can just start kicking a ball. The job of ensuring a training pathway for juniors is safe and engaging is very important.

Everyone on this board thinks in terms of families sailing their yachts - and why they would be bothered about the RYA, but forgets the huge amount of junior "learn to sail" activities that take place every year under the RYA's supervision and responsibility.

Most unusually for me, I must respectfully beg to differ from my expert and sporting friend on this occasion.

How many of the ankle biters that sail their Optimists in the current version of the RYA Scheme stay in the sport? Since we are surrounded by old men and old couples, wherever we look, I’m driven to conclude that the RYA “Pathway”is a near total failure!

I have two sons, the elder started in the RYA Scheme at ten years old (though he had been taking part in family sailing before then) and went on in dinghies to the point where he qualified as an instructor and took part in a National final before going to sea for a career.

The younger showed no interest until he was 16 when he was given given a cheap Squib and taught to sail that by his brother and father. He is now competent and keen but uncertificated, and is a medical student with an interest in the Navy.

So, one went through the RYA pathway and one did not. They both have friends of their ages who sail - but - all those sailing friends had sailing parents!

The RYA pathway is no doubt safe and no doubt sound in the teaching that it imparts, but the great explosion in dinghy sailing in the Fifties took place amongst twenty somethings who had read Ransome and bought a few magazines. There was then no RYA pathway.

Is the RYA actually putting children off sailing?

 

[mjcoon]

I think this discussion highlights the main problem, which is that the RYA is almost invisible to the average cruising yachtsman.

The training stuff is great, as is the Olympic scheme. However, there seems to be little for the cruising sailor these days, and the CA seems to offer a much more useful and valuable service.

I have had dealings with the RYA for over 30 years and have found them increasingly distant and out of touch with the needs of the majority of the sport's participants.

Perhaps calling it a "sport" rather than "past-time" is the problem...

 

[flaming]

Most unusually for me, I must respectfully beg to differ rom my expert and sporting friend on this occasion.

How many of the ankle biters that sail their Optimists in the current version of the RYA Scheme stay in the sport? Since we are surrounded by old men and old couples, wherever we look, I’m driven to conclude that the RYA “Pathway”is a near total failure!

I have two sons, the elder started in the RYA Scheme at ten years old (though he had been taking part in family sailing before then) and went on in dinghies to the point where he qualified as an instructor and took part in a National final before going to sea for a career.

The younger showed no interest until he was 16 when he was given given a cheap Squib and taught to sail that by his brother and father. He is now competent and keen but uncertificated, and is a medical student with an interest in the Navy.

So, one went through the RYA pathway and one did not. They both have friends of their ages who sail - but - all those sailing friends had sailing parents!

The RYA pathway is no doubt safe and no doubt sound in the teaching that it imparts, but the great explosion in dinghy sailing in the Fifties took place amongst twenty somethings who had read Ransome and bought a few magazines. There was then no RYA pathway.

Is the RYA actually putting children off sailing?

It's a very good point, and I know it gets debated a lot. The push towards racing for juniors has, in recent times, had a bit of a push back. There's some really interesting stuff going on at a lot of clubs about just having fun in boats. A friend of mine runs the junior sailing at his club, and that's exactly what they're doing most of the time. Just having fun, racing is separate.

But in this case I was really using the term "pathway" to describe the dinghy sailing levels 1-5, not the racing and squad pathway.

 

[Habebty]

Perhaps calling it a "sport" rather than "past-time" is the problem...

That’s quite a good point, but is it not both - a sport and a pastime, practised by two entirely different groups? ( I’m in the messing about in boats with the occasional fun race).
When I started in an old N12 on the Solent, I wasn’t interested in racing just pottering, perhaps this option should be offered by sailing clubs with fun dinghy cruises?

 

[Kukri]

Have to say I agree with Flaming. Every time I sail past Woolverstone (on the Orwell), there are huge numbers of kids hooning around in dinghies, all under supervision and with a safety boat present. I’m not sure that would happen without the RYA’s involvement.

As a member (grumpy old men’s section) of the Club that is responsible for infesting the upper Orwell with kids hooning around in dinghies, I should just say that the club hosts a “Junior Week” in the summer holidays, which is much the biggest event of the club year. The rest of the time there are just the usual half dozen Oppies.

I am full of admiration for my fellow members who do all the work but I’m not much inclined to join them.

 

[flaming]

That’s quite a good point, but is it not both - a sport and a pastime, practised by two entirely different groups? ( I’m in the messing about in boats with the occasional fun race).
When I started in an old N12 on the Solent, I wasn’t interested in racing just pottering, perhaps this option should be offered by sailing clubs with fun dinghy cruises?

Many do!

Dinghy Cruise on the River Blackwater from Marconi Sailing Club
Sailing in Company and Dinghy Cruises
Cruising

etc, etc....

 

[Mark-1]

[

Most unusually for me, I must respectfully beg to differ rom my expert and sporting friend on this occasion.

How many of the ankle biters that sail their Optimists in the current version of the RYA Scheme stay in the sport? Since we are surrounded by old men and old couples, wherever we look, I’m driven to conclude that the RYA “Pathway”is a near total failure!

I have two sons, the elder started in the RYA Scheme at ten years old (though he had been taking part in family sailing before then) and went on in dinghies to the point where he qualified as an instructor and took part in a National final before going to sea for a career.

The younger showed no interest until he was 16 when he was given given a cheap Squib and taught to sail that by his brother and father. He is now competent and keen but uncertificated, and is a medical student with an interest in the Navy.

So, one went through the RYA pathway and one did not. They both have friends of their ages who sail - but - all those sailing friends had sailing parents!

The RYA pathway is no doubt safe and no doubt sound in the teaching that it imparts, but the great explosion in dinghy sailing in the Fifties took place amongst twenty somethings who had read Ransome and bought a few magazines. There was then no RYA pathway.

Is the RYA actually putting children off sailing?

I wish I hadn't inadvertantly caused this digression into training but it's an interesting thesis. And the point about people taking up sailing without training is a good one. (I started sailing at the age of 4 and I've never had any formal training, I'm not sure that's put me off in any way and it's only in the last 20 years it's become remotely unusual.)

However, some random comments on training for kids.

My 9yo daughter has been utterly enthused by the formal structured training the RYA brings. She's loving the book with progress ticked off. She has a real ambition to progress through the RYA training process. But she doesn't seem that interested in actually sailing for its own sake. Will she stay in the sport/hobby? I hope so, but I fear not.

In contrast my son isn't enthused by formal training. He wants to go as fast as possible in sailing boats as much as possible. I'm sure he'll do junior weeks etc, but I sense it's the sailing that appeals to him rather than the structured training. Will he stay in the sport/hobby? I sense he might.

When I was racing dinghies regularly I did my fair share of OOD duties and rescue boat duties. Why wouldn't I? Fast forward a couple of decades and now I need 4 *days* of formal training just to drive a rescue boat. And I need to pay for that. That's fine for me, it's a terrific excuse not to help out, but it has lead to constant pleading e-mails from the club to fill gaps. Also, whereas before the rescue boats used to be manned by fairly competent people, these days you frequently see 'all the gear no idea' people who were willing to do the training but can't competently drive a boat, don't really understand outboards and don't race themselves. So that's one aspect of boating that I've completely given up purely because of training.

That's all anecdotal and I'm not sure I'd draw any conclusion from it, but I'd be slow to dismiss anyone else's conclusion either.

 

[Bobc]

Perhaps calling it a "sport" rather than "past-time" is the problem...

To a degree you are right, however to a lot of sailing folk (me included) it is both. I cruise and I race.

One of the biggest differences I see between the UK and France however, is that the "pathways" seem to be different. In the UK, the kids do their 1-5 dinghy courses. A selected few continue on into the squads, but there is nothing for the rest, and certainly nothing to get them into yachts.

In France however, they progress the kids through boats like J80s, which is why I suspect you see lots of teenagers in small micro-cuppers/quarter tonners, 6.5s etc. One thing I am always struck by in Brittany is the number of younger people cruising about in sub-30ft boats with little outboards on the back, clearly sailing on a shoestring. You just don't see that in the UK.

 

[Sandy]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of structured training. And certificates can be very useful both as a focus to learning, and as validation of it. But it's the learning that's the important thing, not the bit of paper.

The structured training and certification is one of the functions of the RYA. I agree that it is the learning that is the important bit and having a body like the RYA means that there is a standard so that when somebody comes onboard there is a common understanding of how to do an OXO and the skipper does not need to fill the chainsaw with petrol just to get the boat off the pontoon.

 

[Mark-1]

To a degree you are right, however to a lot of sailing folk (me included) it is both. I cruise and I race.

One of the biggest differences I see between the UK and France however, is that the "pathways" seem to be different. In the UK, the kids do their 1-5 dinghy courses. A selected few continue on into the squads, but there is nothing for the rest, and certainly nothing to get them into yachts.

In France however, they progress the kids through boats like J80s, which is why I suspect you see lots of teenagers in small micro-cuppers/quarter tonners, 6.5s etc. One thing I am always struck by in Brittany is the number of younger people cruising about in sub-30ft boats with little outboards on the back, clearly sailing on a shoestring. You just don't see that in the UK.

Maybe but I think there *is* an obvious pathway for youngsters which is human powered boats for the *really* young ones then learn to sail in a dinghy then race in club races.

Once you're racing dinghies you have clear visibility of all other aspects of sailing and can make your own choices without any formal pathway.

I suspect the reason we don't see youngish adults in 20 footers is because they are either not interested in floating caravans at all or are satisfied with a few charter trips a year to top up dinghy sailing/windsurfing/kite surfing and all the other exciting forms of sailing which are also cheaper and require low commitment.

 

[awol]

Young people in a small cruising boat need somewhere to keep it. In other countries marinas tend to be a community enterprise unlike the UK cash-cow mentality.

 

[Concerto]

When I read Kukri's original post I agreed with his comment. However after reading all of the posts, I have changed my mind. Yes, I am a RYA member and thought that I only get a magazine with little information relevant to my sort of sailing and a free boat show ticket. Having started sailing over 50 years ago when there was no easy route to learn to sail and many of the better clubs had waiting lists that were years long. Due to work and family pressures I had to stop sailing for 21 years, which might be representative of the dip in people in their 30's and 40's participating as their priorities are too controlling to allow time for sailing.

If all of us like sailing with minimal regulations and want to ensure the secondhand values of our boats, we need non-sailors to participate in sailing. This can come from youngsters starting sailing in Opies, schools having sailing as a sport, through sailing clubs and sailing schools offering the opportunity to all. The press always seem to think that people who have a boat are mega rich, but in reality most are ordinary people sailing on a shoe string. Being on a boat is very relaxing and can be very social, but as many on this forum seem to state it is for grumpy old men. How wrong this is. I also enjoy reading Sail World (Sail World - The world's largest sailing news network (sail-world.com) ) and then you realise how many dinghy and keel boat classes have events in this country and around the world and the number of people involved in sailing small boats. Grumpy old men never seem to be featured, I wonder why?

Looking at the cost of membership of the RYA, I look upon it as an investment in my sport, not what is it doing for me. If you consider all aspects of sailing, does the RYA offer support and guidance? I dare to ask if anyone can say no. The other sailing based organisations I am a member of include the Westerly Owners Association (WOA) and recently I joined the Cruising Association. No longer am I a member of any yacht club. Besides posting comments and advice on this forum, I am very active in the WOA being on the East Coast committee, organised a number of events, given talks on zoom and inspiration for other owners to improve their boats. Do all of you try to do the same.

Recently having Concerto at the boat show meant I met a lot of people from many different areas of sailing. Not all of them were grumpy old men, there were plenty of families with young children. Across from my home berth is a sailing school with 3 out of their 5 berths. These boats are out with people who want to learn how to sail, but the age group is generally late 20's through to late 40's, with some youngsters and older people. This shows sailing in yachts is still appealing to many and most of them will take up sailing in one form or another. The same applies to sailing clubs who organise try a boat weekends and offer RYA training courses. Just because grumpy old men are not on the learning curve of sailing does not make the RYA irrelevant to them. It is just that they probably already know enough not to actively need their support, but we should support the RYA for the benefit of our sport at all levels.

 

[Kukri]

Thanks, Concerto, for an excellent post.

I was just dismayed - as I think Elaine Bunting (Whom God Preserve, as she has been the best sailing journalist around for ages now) was, also - by the way in which the new CEO focussed immediately on the Olympics. But perhaps Sara Sutcliffe has a Cunning Plan which is well above my pay grade.

 

[Mark-1]

a common understanding of how to do an OXO and the skipper does not need to fill the chainsaw with petrol just to get the boat off the pontoon.

Bah!

Would you disparage a Picasso because it was difficult to un-paint!!???

?

 

[rotrax]

Let me tell you of how First Mate and I progressed along the Novice to getting on with it ourselves in sailing. We had both been long time serious motorcycle racers, at up to International level. We planned our retirement from this sport so chose to try sailing as a replacement - a week long RYA CC Course with Menorca Cruising out of Mahon. It was a great week so I sold one of my vintage motorbikes and we bought a boatshare.

First Mate was made redundant and her package gave us enough to buy a modest boat, a Gibsea 96. I took RYA DS and we attended two RYA 'Musters' in Cowes.

First Mate and I did further RYA training, she doing DS and me CS - now Coastal Yachtmaster. I must say all the training and the RYA Musters were first class.

Serious Senior Moment time, the first of two expensive - for us - boats purchased to expand our horizons.

In the 13 years since then the RYA has been pretty irrelevant to the type of sailing we do, long term - 4 or5 months at a time - cruising.

We researched the CA and found it to be a better assocciation to belong to.

A country can only have one Governing Body for a sport. The RYA is the UK - and some parts of the Commonwealth - one.

Being a Governing body means focus is on internal and external competitive sailing. And quite right too!

However, other issues are in the envelope. Cruising/government issues/ new regulations/H&S/envioroment/conservation etc are perhaps not at the front of a Governing Bodies focus if it does not affect their core strategy, competitive sailing and training.

And, I believe, this is where we came in......................................

 

[Biggles Wader]

I see the RYA in similar vein to a trade union, anathma to some here no doubt, something that does a lot that I am not really interested in,some stuff that I disagree with, but overall makes the boating environment better for most of us. Thats why Im still a member and have just sent my votes in for the AGM.

 

[mjcoon]

Bah!

Would you disparage a Picasso because it was difficult to un-paint!!???

?

Do you have a degree in orthogonal logic? (A newly invented oxymoron...)

 

[dunedin]

So the RYA, far from helping cruising sailors, are causing the insane overcrowding we suffer from in the South.

But nobody said the RYA aren't useful in terms of training and racing. This thread was all about casual cruising sailors of the type who inhabit this forum.

To be fair - which few on here are wrt RYA - the Cruising and Regulatory Affairs teams do a heck of a lot of lobbying behind the scenes on behalf of cruising yacht folk, both sail and power - funded by those of us who are members but if benefit to all.
They were very active behind the scenes trying to get any form of clarity around the B-sxxt stuff, trying to get some clarity and influence to moderate at least some of the worst parts - albeit in spite of campaigns by both RYA and CA, the UK Government has in some cases refused to budge (eg on 90/180 days, where I understand the EU offered longer stays but UK govt bizarrely refused).
They also jointly got the extended period for boats being brought back to UK to retain VAT, though again the Government has insisted it will recharge VAT on boats brought back after then (in spite of the inequity and adverse impact on British boat service industry). Anybody bringing their boat back to UK in the 18 months since end of Transition period could be saving many £10k as a result, which would more than fund a few life memberships.

There are loads of other things that the naysayers on here choose to ignore (and probably are blissfully ignorant of) but they have been reviewing and often challenging to remove the worst idiocies that desk bound bureaucrats and devil may care MPs dream up, including:
- getting sailing onto the list for early restart after Covid lock downs (that was not an easy persuade, I suspect)
- proposal to abolish use of red diesel by yachts - now withdrawn in GB and 60/40 retained (saving many owners many ££££)
- the total chaos of rules (red diesel, VAT etc) resulting from the Northern Ireland protocol signed by our PM
- new rules for taking pets across to Ireland and EU countries
- seeking an online version of the C1331, and preferably one that is actually usable by cruising yachtsmen
- the proposed new rules for 16,000 “PWCs” which in fact have been drafted to include millions of other floating items bigger than a lilo
- definition of craft liable to pay light dues
- helping clubs deal with all of this new legislation
etc etc

Most people on here are probably completely unaware of the swathes of proposed new legislation and consultation documents that need to be responded to, without which we would probably have all of the complex rules, mandatory equipment lists and mandatory skipper certificates that are often referred to on here about other countries. Our relative freedoms as Uk boaters will soon disappear if our representives don’t keep pushing back. Few of these complainers about the RYA probably do much to contribute to these things personally (if you do, great). Don’t ask what my sporting national authority does for me, but ask what do I do for my sport?

I have no connection to the RYA other than a member who has benefitted from their help - and has had dialogue with them on some of these complex topics.

 

[dunedin]

I see the RYA in similar vein to a trade union, anathma to some here no doubt, something that does a lot that I am not really interested in,some stuff that I disagree with, but overall makes the boating environment better for most of us. Thats why Im still a member and have just sent my votes in for the AGM.

Ditto - I carefully read the bio’s for the people proposed for the Board roles, and voted for the 3 who seemed to offer most

 

[Kukri]

To be fair - which few on here are wrt RYA - the Cruising and Regulatory Affairs teams do a heck of a lot of lobbying behind the scenes on behalf of cruising yacht folk, both sail and power - funded by those of us who are members but if benefit to all.
They were very active behind the scenes trying to get any form of clarity around the B-sxxt stuff, trying to get some clarity and influence to moderate at least some of the worst parts - albeit in spite of campaigns by both RYA and CA, the UK Government has in some cases refused to budge (eg on 90/180 days, where I understand the EU offered longer stays but UK govt bizarrely refused).
They also jointly got the extended period for boats being brought back to UK to retain VAT, though again the Government has insisted it will recharge VAT on boats brought back after then (in spite of the inequity and adverse impact on British boat service industry). Anybody bringing their boat back to UK in the 18 months since end of Transition period could be saving many £10k as a result, which would more than fund a few life memberships.

There are loads of other things that the naysayers on here choose to ignore (and probably are blissfully ignorant of) but they have been reviewing and often challenging to remove the worst idiocies that desk bound bureaucrats and devil may care MPs dream up, including:
- getting sailing onto the list for early restart after Covid lock downs (that was not an easy persuade, I suspect)
- proposal to abolish use of red diesel by yachts - now withdrawn in GB and 60/40 retained (saving many owners many ££££)
- the total chaos of rules (red diesel, VAT etc) resulting from the Northern Ireland protocol signed by our PM
- new rules for taking pets across to Ireland and EU countries
- seeking an online version of the C1331, and preferably one that is actually usable by cruising yachtsmen
- the proposed new rules for 16,000 “PWCs” which in fact have been drafted to include millions of other floating items bigger than a lilo
- definition of craft liable to pay light dues
- helping clubs deal with all of this new legislation
etc etc

Most people on here are probably completely unaware of the swathes of proposed new legislation and consultation documents that need to be responded to, without which we would probably have all of the complex rules, mandatory equipment lists and mandatory skipper certificates that are often referred to on here about other countries. Our relative freedoms as Uk boaters will soon disappear if our representives don’t keep pushing back. Few of these complainers about the RYA probably do much to contribute to these things personally (if you do, great). Don’t ask what my sporting national authority does for me, but ask what do I do for my sport?

I have no connection to the RYA other than a member who has benefitted from their help - and has had dialogue with them on some of these complex topics.

Up to a point, Lord Copper. AFAIK, and I may be a little out of date, all this work by the RYA is done by one (very pleasant, very capable) man, which means that he automatically works with the dedicated amateurs, or shall we say RATS, at the CA, and they divvy up tasks between them, which is a vast improvement on the situation a few decades ago (but within my memory) when the RYA wanted nothing to do with the upstarts at the CA.

But my point was that Sara Sutcliffe chose to devote her opening statement, on taking up the role, to the Olympic team, to the “traditional four year cycle”, and her remarks on the training pathway related to racing.

We’ve just had an Olympics, jolly well done for the handful of professional dinghy sailors who can look forward to glittering futures on the professional circuit, but the next one is nearly four years away. Does nothing else matter?