Sad case of deaths at sea.....not keeping watch

[Achosenman]

Again this was a clear moonlit night with good visibility and a calm sea. I suggest that a good look out would have seen the boat anyway, regardless if they had a light or not. Either way the skipper made the decision not have two look outs as required, was looking at social media at the time of the incident and either did not have his radar on or did not know how to use it properly. In addition he had two bright forward facing lights, which together with looking at social media meant his night vision would have been impaired to say the least.

More information here from the CPS
Conviction over maritime incident which left three men dead | The Crown Prosecution Service
''During the trial, the jury heard expert evidence from a master mariner, who explained that a proper lookout on a ship requires the watch keeper to give full attention to their task and to be continually visually scanning ahead and around.

They also need to be mindful that smaller vessels may only be detectable at a short range and that marine guidelines state two people should always be on watch during the hours of darkness.

Investigations showed that both the main and back-up radars of the Vertrouwen were replaced on 3 August 2017, just days before the incident happened, and checks were made to ensure they were working.

The first mate also confirmed that the radar equipment was working correctly when he took over the shift just hours after the incident.

Evidence also showed that the defendant appeared to be using the ship’s laptop computer around the time of the incident and was also sending WhatsApp messages to a friend''


Not surprised the jury found him guilty beyond all reasonable doubt of not keeping a proper look out

Has anyone said they though he was not guilty? I can absolutely guarantee you, everyone here (if they sail) will be guilty of not keeping a proper lookout at some point.

The fact is the skipper of the James 2 laid a trap and the fishing boat skipper obliged them by sailing into it. If you break any part of the error chain, there is no incident.

For me, this has highlighted the need for proper regulation of marine activities, for both professional and leisure users. The sea is not a kindergarten and we should not treat it as such.

 

[jordanbasset]

Has anyone said they though he was not guilty? I can absolutely guarantee you, everyone here (if they sail) will be guilty of not keeping a proper lookout at some point.

Great we agree the decision of the court to find the skipper guilty beyond all reasonable doubt was the correct one

 

[Achosenman]

Great we agree the decision of the court to find the skipper guilty beyond all reasonable doubt was the correct one

I thought people were saying the sentance was a bit harsh considering the circumstances, not that he was innocent.

 

[jordanbasset]

I thought people were saying the sentance was a bit harsh considering the circumstances, not that he was innocent.

Yes and others a little lenient, perhaps shows it was about right

 

[Achosenman]

Yes and others a little lenient, perhaps shows it was about right

He is a fisherman, he can only be hurt in his wallet?

 

[dom]

I thought people were saying the sentance was a bit harsh considering the circumstances, not that he was innocent.

This is a question which the defence will no doubt consider in detail. Do we even know whether the judge took account of the contributory lapses on the part of the angling vessel as part of mitigation?

As jordanbasset alludes, a retrial could lead to everything form an acquittal to a much harsher sentence. So the defence will have to weigh it up carefully.

 

[Achosenman]

This is a question which the defence will no doubt consider in detail. Do we even know whether the judge took account of the contributory lapses on the part of the angling vessel as part of mitigation?

As jordanbasset alludes, a retrial could lead to everything form an acquittal to a much harsher sentence. So the defence will have to weigh it up carefully.

In his position, I would be seeking a more competent defence.

 

[Mark-1]

The sea is not a kindergarten and we should not treat it as such.

For many of us it was. For many of us lucky enough to be children it still is. Sailing and boating is literally childsplay. Probably one of the safest things kids can do.

 

[Achosenman]

For many of us it was. For many of us lucky enough to be children it still is. Sailing and boating is literally childsplay. Probably one of the safest things kids can do.

Presumably, you wouldn't let your kids drift at night, without lifejackets, in charge of an inadequate and unlit boat, with passengers, just outside a harbour while very much under the influence of alcohol?

Oliver Powell, defending, asked Mr Cojocariu how much alcohol the group had drank during the day and on the evening of the incident.
Mr Cojocariu admitted a substantial amount of alcohol including whisky, beer, wine and vodka had been drunk.

 

[dom]

In his position, I would be seeking a more competent defence.

And he has exactly that choice!

As an aside and I'm not British, but the UK legal system is very well regarded internationally. It is one of the few places where one can challenge almost anything, even the government, and still get a fair hearing.

The idea of keeping accident investigators out of the question of guilt has also been widely adopted internationally.

 

[Gary Fox]

I thought people were saying the sentance was a bit harsh considering the circumstances, not that he was innocent.

You thought wrong. The sentence was very lenient indeed for someone who was using a computer while his vessel killed three people.

 

[Achosenman]

You thought wrong. The sentence was very lenient indeed for someone who was using a computer while his vessel killed three people.

Maybe you want to re-read what I said...

 

[TernVI]

.... and that marine guidelines state two people should always be on watch during the hours of darkness.
....

Do you always have two on watch?
Do you think solo watches should be banned?

What are the consequences of this for single handed yachtsmen? How do their watch keeping standards measure up to to the criminal law illustrated by this case?

 

[Adios]

You thought wrong. The sentence was very lenient indeed for someone who was using a computer while his vessel killed three people.

The investigation showed that had the James 2 been displaying a stern light it would have been visible from the moment the fishing boat left the breakwater. Do you imagine that the skipper would have been either on his phone or computer the entire time from leaving the harbour? Despite a couple of course changes? No skipper makes a course change without instinctively looking where he is heading. If the James 2 had been visible all the skipper had to do is scan the horizon once in that time and he would have seen it.

He might not have technically been keeping a "proper" watch in a professional sense, not having 2 people on watch seems the most damning thing. But I don't doubt it would have been a "sufficient" watch if the James 2 had had a stern light.

 

[dom]

Do you always have two on watch?
Do you think solo watches should be banned?

What are the consequences of this for single handed yachtsmen? How do their watch keeping standards measure up to to the criminal law illustrated by this case?

The 'two people on watch' requirement is contained in the MCA MGN 313F and only applies to fishing vessels:

"KEEPING A SAFE NAVIGATIONAL WATCH ON FISHING VESSELS"
https://assets.publishing.service.g...m/uploads/attachment_data/file/440093/313.pdf

 

[Adios]

For many of us it was. For many of us lucky enough to be children it still is. Sailing and boating is literally childsplay. Probably one of the safest things kids can do.

I was just thinking that yesterday. A friend I grew up with was introduced to motorcross by his dad. I went with them one day and he took off over a tabletop jump and parted from the bike landing on the other side to where we were. His dad legged it and found he was ok. Who can take that level of risk and stress for a hobby? Even mountain biking is very risky weaving through the trees on a single track. Cycling on a road is suicidal IMO. What is safer than sailing a dinghy, though not safe enough apparently to prevent it being banned during lockdown

 

[Gary Fox]

Do you always have two on watch?
Do you think solo watches should be banned?

What are the consequences of this for single handed yachtsmen? How do their watch keeping standards measure up to to the criminal law illustrated by this case?

Personally, my watchkeeping standards compare with Marr's very well because I don't use laptops or social media at night, in order to keep my night vision and concentration.
I also don't have powerful (and under Colregs, illegal) floodlights switched on, so I actually stand a chance of seeing things in front of my yacht.

 

[Adios]

Presumably, you wouldn't let your kids drift at night, without lifejackets, in charge of an inadequate and unlit boat, with passengers, just outside a harbour while very much under the influence of alcohol?

Oliver Powell, defending, asked Mr Cojocariu how much alcohol the group had drank during the day and on the evening of the incident.
Mr Cojocariu admitted a substantial amount of alcohol including whisky, beer, wine and vodka had been drunk.

I hadn't seen that but its exactly what I expected. I'm marvelling at us making it to 9 pages without mentioning nationality and the reputation for hard drinking. Who mixes wine, beer and light and dark spirits? I can totally picture a poorly considered drunken response to the 26m steel boat being indignation and entitlement, waving fists and shouting that the fishing boat must avoid them, until it was too late to realise he was in no position to argue. Their ability to save themselves was probably also hugely impaired by it, not least the decision to spend time cutting fenders off rather than donning the lifejackets.

 

[Gary Fox]

I hadn't seen that but its exactly what I expected. I'm marvelling at us making it to 9 pages without mentioning nationality and the reputation for hard drinking. Who mixes wine, beer and light and dark spirits? I can totally picture a poorly considered drunken response to the 26m steel boat being indignation and entitlement, waving fists and shouting that the fishing boat must avoid them, until it was too late to realise he was in no position to argue. Their ability to save themselves was probably also hugely impaired by it, not least the decision to spend time cutting fenders off rather than donning the lifejackets.

So they deserved to be killed because they mixed their drinks. Which combination of beverages would have absolved them of blame?

 

[dom]

I hadn't seen that but its exactly what I expected. I'm marvelling at us making it to 9 pages without mentioning nationality and the reputation for hard drinking. Who mixes wine, beer and light and dark spirits? I can totally picture a poorly considered drunken response to the 26m steel boat being indignation and entitlement, waving fists and shouting that the fishing boat must avoid them, until it was too late to realise he was in no position to argue. Their ability to save themselves was probably also hugely impaired by it, not least the decision to spend time cutting fenders off rather than donning the lifejackets.

That line could be problematic to pursue in court by reason of ad hominem and racism.