Sad case of deaths at sea.....not keeping watch

[dom]

Are there other cases where someone has been sent to prison for the offense of failing to keep a proper lookout? I dont know the answer to that but I suggest that if we do intend to bang people up for it we are going to need a bigger prison.

Yes, in 2008 (?) the skipper of the trawler Greenhill was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment for the unlawful killing of his two crew.

In 2016, the of the fishing boat, Diamond was jailed for similar.

Etc., etc.

There is nothing unprecedented about this.

 

[MystyBlue2]

Simply the actions of the James 2 skipper. They loaded the pistol, cocked it, placed it to their temple and the fishing boat skipper gave their elbow the fateful nudge.

Not really, Its so easy to blame james 2 but seen as Marrs was completely oblivious and not paying attention he could have collided with another ship/Rocks etc.

So easy to pass the buck

 

[dom]

Simply the actions of the James 2 skipper. They loaded the pistol, cocked it, placed it to their temple and the fishing boat skipper gave their elbow the fateful nudge.

You cannot support a leniency argument with endless analogies and hearsay.

I mean, what are your arguments pertaining specifically to the facts of this case -- i.e. why the skipper having done the crime has been sentenced to too much time?

 

[Achosenman]

Not really, Its so easy to blame james 2 but seen as Marrs was completely oblivious and not paying attention he could have collided with another ship/Rocks etc.

So easy to pass the buck

For the last time, no-one is passing the buck. You seem intent on ignoring the full facts of this case.

 

[MystyBlue2]

For the last time, no-one is passing the buck. You seem intent on ignoring the full facts of this case.

No you do mate look at your posts. Your looking for the slightest thing to remove blame from Marrs. I agree james 2 was at fault too but you seem to have blinkers on

 

[dom]

For the last time, no-one is passing the buck. You seem intent on ignoring the full facts of this case.

Well go on then, referencing the facts, what is your argument?

 

[Biggles Wader]

Yes, in 2008 (?) the skipper of the trawler Greenhill was sentenced to 12 months imprisonment for the unlawful killing of his two crew.

In 2016, the of the fishing boat, Diamond was jailed for similar.

Etc., etc.

There is nothing unprecedented about this.

I was specifically asking about the offense of failing to keep a proper lookout, not unlawful killing or similar. In this case the skipper was not charged with the more serious offense, probably because the cps knew there was not the evidence for it, and he would probably have had a far better defence lawyer if he had been so charged.

 

[Gary Fox]

That is my point. At night, with nothing to focus on, the human eye will "park" its focus a few feet in front of the person. There are scanning techniques that help prevent this phenomenon. It is why objects are routinely missed in the dark along with not looking off-centre to use the more sensitive part of the eye. He could have had everything turned off and still missed the un-lit James 2.

As a professional skipper, he would have known all that, so he is doubly negligent.

 

[Achosenman]

You cannot support a leniency argument with endless analogies and hearsay.

I mean, what are your arguments pertaining specifically to the facts of this case -- i.e. why the skipper having done the crime has been sentenced to too much time?

Because it is not a fitting punishment IMO. He will do his six months and he will learn...maybe. No-one else in his trade will. If he got 2 years suspended and maybe a £10k fine you can bet every fishing vessel would sit up and take notice.

 

[Achosenman]

As a professional skipper, he would have known all that, so he is doubly negligent.

No, he wouldn't. I know because I come from a different background. The maritime industry is still in the stone age in some respects.

 

[dom]

I was specifically asking about the offense of failing to keep a proper lookout, not unlawful killing or similar. In this case the skipper was not charged with the more serious offense, probably because the cps knew there was not the evidence for it, and he would probably have had a far better defence lawyer if he had been so charged.

And I was answering!!

"In summing up, the judge His Honour John Hart said that the skipper's neglect of essential safety precautions could not be excused, and that his neglect to keep a proper lookout amounted to gross negligence and led directly to this terrible tragedy. He added 'that the failure to keep a proper watch is a not uncommon practice cannot exculpate the defendant from punishment, nor should it affect the nature of the punishment.' "​

Centre for Corporate Accountability.​

 

[dom]

Because it is not a fitting punishment IMO. He will do his six months and he will learn...maybe. No-one else in his trade will. If he got 2 years suspended and maybe a £10k fine you can bet every fishing vessel would sit up and take notice.

'IMO' isn't really an argument against the sentence the judge handed down though, is it?

 

[Achosenman]

'IMO' isn't really an argument against the sentence the judge handed down though, is it?

Of course it is. Whether you believe it has merit is another matter.

 

[john0740]

I was specifically asking about the offense of failing to keep a proper lookout, not unlawful killing or similar. In this case the skipper was not charged with the more serious offense, probably because the cps knew there was not the evidence for it, and he would probably have had a far better defence lawyer if he had been so charged.

MCA prosecution annual reports are available online. A quick review suggests that it would be common for a fine to be issued for failure to maintain proper lookout. I did not spot recent example where there was a custodial sentence for this specific offence ...

 

[Gary Fox]

No, he wouldn't. I know because I come from a different background. The maritime industry is still in the stone age in some respects.

The marine industry is overflowing with paper and online reports and advice about the distraction of watchkeepers, how to avoid it, and its costly and deadly consequences.

 

[Achosenman]

The marine industry is overflowing with paper and online reports and advice about the distaction of watchkeepers, how to avoid it, and its costly and deadly consequences.

AFAIA, none of which address the physiological shortcomings of the human eye. I am not talking about "distractions"

 

[Achosenman]

Well go on then, referencing the facts, what is your argument?

Have you looked at the MCA video?
Go back and re-cap what has been posted. I have posted my thoughts like everyone else. I'm not about to repeat the process.

 

[Gary Fox]

No, he wouldn't. I know because I come from a different background. The maritime industry is still in the stone age in some respects.

Stone-age guidance available in MGN 315

 

[dom]

Have you looked at the MCA video?
Go back and re-cap what has been posted. I have posted my thoughts like everyone else. I'm not about to repeat the process.

As far as I can see there have been dubious analogies and hearsay to beat the band.

You have offered zero substantive arguments in relation to either sentencing or guilt.

Unless I've missed something?

 

[Achosenman]

No you do mate look at your posts. Your looking for the slightest thing to remove blame from Marrs. I agree james 2 was at fault too but you seem to have blinkers on

I do not remove blame from the fishing boat skipper. I have said so in plain English. If you can't understand that I can't help you.