Sad case of deaths at sea.....not keeping watch

[Adios]

So they deserved to be killed because they mixed their drinks. Which combination of beverages would have absolved them of blame?

I was thinking more about the hangover most people would expect to get with that combination. Its of course sad that they didn't all get to experience their hangover but where did I suggest they deserved to be killed for mixing their drinks? You were seeming quite a reasonable person until you skipped over my reasonable reply to you and spun that instead.

 

[Adios]

duplicate

 

[dom]

Which combination of beverages would have absolved them of blame?

 

[MystyBlue2]

I thought people were saying the sentance was a bit harsh considering the circumstances, not that he was innocent.

How is a 12month sentence for the loss of 3 lives harsh by any stretch of the imagination?

He will only do 6 months on good behaviour. Thats only enough time for him to reflect on what he's done, Come out, And wont take him long before hes back onboard another ship. Lets all hope that by xmas 2021 hes has a refresher course on seamanship and can keep other water users safe.

I'd do 3 years for burglary if i stole my neighbours bicycle from his shed!

Trust me for whats happened, 6 month jail time is getting off extremely lightly!

 

[jordanbasset]

The 'two people on watch' requirement is contained in the MCA MGN 313F and only applies to fishing vessels:

"KEEPING A SAFE NAVIGATIONAL WATCH ON FISHING VESSELS"
https://assets.publishing.service.g...m/uploads/attachment_data/file/440093/313.pdf

Personally, my watchkeeping standards compare with Marr's very well because I don't use laptops or social media at night, in order to keep my night vision and concentration.
I also don't have powerful (and under Colregs, illegal) floodlights switched on, so I actually stand a chance of seeing things in front of my yacht.

Agree, was thinking much the same myself. There is only ever two of us on the boat so when we do night passages we do 4 hours on and 4 hours off. I regularly scan 360 degrees, paying special attention to what is ahead of me. I do not have cabin lights on so my night vision is good, I strongly suspect I would have the white boat, it is surprising just how far and well you can see on a clear moonlit night with a calm sea.. That is my situation when in charge of a 12 metre sailing boat

I would expect a professional skipper with 3 other professional crew on board in charge of a commercially operated 26 metre steel boat to be at least that level, from the facts of the case he clearly wasn't. He made a number of basic errors of judgement, including as you say using social media, keeping floodlights on, in addition failure to use radar correctly and a failure to follow the guidance of having two crew on watch at night. The skipper fell below most of the standards I would use, let alone that of a professional on a commercially operated vessel

 

[Achosenman]

How is a 12month sentence for the loss of 3 lives harsh by any stretch of the imagination?

He will only do 6 months on good behaviour. Thats only enough time for him to reflect on what he's done, Come out, And wont take him long before hes back onboard another ship. Lets all hope that by xmas 2021 hes has a refresher course on seamanship and can keep other water users safe.

I'd do 3 years for burglary if i stole my neighbours bicycle from his shed!

Trust me for whats happened, 6 month jail time is getting off extremely lightly!

If you don't mind, I don't trust you. You appear to be far too emotional and seemingly incapable of looking at all the factors involved for my taste.
I posted a link to the MCA video. They have very definite opinions on this incident.

I do note you hope he takes a refresher course. Can I assume you are equally qualified?

 

[Achosenman]

Personally, my watchkeeping standards compare with Marr's very well because I don't use laptops or social media at night, in order to keep my night vision and concentration.
I also don't have powerful (and under Colregs, illegal) floodlights switched on, so I actually stand a chance of seeing things in front of my yacht.

How does your "on watch" environment compare to a commercial fishing vessels bridge?

 

[dom]

How does your "on watch" environment compare to a commercial fishing vessels bridge?

He just answered that! He believes it to be better by reason of avoiding distractions and the use of blinding deck lights.

That is clearly an improvement, No?

 

[MystyBlue2]

If you don't mind, I don't trust you. You appear to be far too emotional and seemingly incapable of looking at all the factors involved for my taste.
I posted a link to the MCA video. They have very definite opinions on this incident.

I do note you hope he takes a refresher course. Can I assume you are equally qualified?

Not equally qualified as this plum, and just because you have the qualifications, Does not mean you any more safer, like the skipper in question, Ah it will be fine BANG, 3 people die as hes too overconfident and clearly negligent.

Surely knowing to keep speed down, assess the conditions (low lighting) and keeping a constant lookout like he should have been doing then maybe this sad story might have had a different outcome.

Ive only got PB L2, However i use my brains and do things correctly, unlike this IDIOT. First and foremost KEEPING A BLOODY GOOD LOOK WHERE I'M GOING FOR STARTERS.

He thought it would be alright...Well he thought wrong and now has to live with life changing conciseness. Lets hope the guilt is better punishment than the sentence.

 

[Achosenman]

He just answered that! He believes it to be better by reason of avoiding distractions and the use of blinding deck lights.

That is clearly an improvement, No?

HA ha, what I'm getting at is if you have never been on the bridge of a fishing vessel at night and seen the myriad of lit screens, lights and other distractions that are present, but are absent on a basic sailing boat it renders any comparison pretty meaningless in my view.

 

[Achosenman]

Not equally qualified as this plum, and just because you have the qualifications, Does not mean you any more safer, like the skipper in question, Ah it will be fine BANG, 3 people die as hes too overconfident and clearly negligent.

Surely knowing to keep speed down, assess the conditions (low lighting) and keeping a constant lookout like he should have been doing then maybe this sad story might have had a different outcome.

Ive only got PB L2, However i use my brains and do things correctly, unlike this IDIOT. First and foremost KEEPING A BLOODY GOOD LOOK WHERE I'M GOING FOR STARTERS.

He thought it would be alright...Well he thought wrong and now has to live with life changing conciseness. Lets hope the guilt is better punishment than the sentence.

You need to take a deep breath.

 

[MystyBlue2]

HA ha, what I'm getting at is if you have never been on the bridge of a fishing vessel at night and seen the myriad of lit screens, lights and other distractions that are present, but are absent on a basic sailing boat it renders any comparison pretty meaningless in my view.

No i have not, BUT If i where qualified enough to operate a vessel of that size i should have enough brains and knowledge to keep a proper lookout in the dark and stay off social media while underway!

A good skipper does things right, A bad and QUALIFIED skipper can cause just the same damage as an amateur.

 

[dom]

HA ha, what I'm getting at is if you have never been on the bridge of a fishing vessel at night and seen the myriad of lit screens, lights and other distractions that are present, but are absent on a basic sailing boat it renders any comparison pretty meaningless in my view.

Your view is a matter for you. Never been on a fishing boat, but I have for the record been several times on the bridge of a cross Channel ferry at night, on the bridge of a cruise ship at night, and on the bridge of a large container ship (none in a professional capacity).

What is noticeable is the dim light, the calm, the concentration, and utter precision of these crews.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that the court may have found correctly in this case?

 

[jordanbasset]

HA ha, what I'm getting at is if you have never been on the bridge of a fishing vessel at night and seen the myriad of lit screens, lights and other distractions that are present, but are absent on a basic sailing boat it renders any comparison pretty meaningless in my view.

All the more reason for the skipper to be not adding more distractions by playing on his computer and sending whatsapp messages. Also perhaps if as the guidance says there had been two on watch, one could have gone out of the cabin, took a turn around deck, got their night vision back and did a proper 360 degree sweep every now and then

 

[Achosenman]

Your view is a matter for you. Never been on a fishing boat, but I have for the record been several times on the bridge of a cross Channel ferry at night, on the bridge of a cruise ship at night, and on the bridge of a large container ship (none in a professional capacity).

What is noticeable is the dim light, the calm, the concentration, and utter precision of these crews.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that the court may have found correctly in this case?

Again, at no point has anyone that I'm aware of, said the skipper was not at fault. What has been said is considering the circumstances, the sentence was harsh.

 

[Gary Fox]

How does your "on watch" environment compare to a commercial fishing vessels bridge?

Mine is far superior I admit, except in poor weather if spray or rain was heavy enough to hurt my eyes, then I could use my radar (except that Marr didn't use either of his two working sets).
Wheelhouses and ships' bridges are known to insulate people, mentally as well as physically, from the sea and weather conditions, prevent a good lookout, and stop night vision developing.
I'm sure some studies, tests or surveys must have been done on this subject and they would make interesting reading.

 

[dom]

Again, at no point has anyone that I'm aware of, said the skipper was not at fault. What has been said is considering the circumstances, the sentence was harsh.

Okay, the fishing vessel was at fault, we seem to all broadly agreed on that.

So, specifically in terms of UK law, what is your reasoning to support the conclusion that the sentence was too harsh?

 

[Biggles Wader]

Okay, the fishing vessel was at fault, we seem to all broadly agreed on that.

So, specifically in terms of UK law, what is your reasoning to support the conclusion that the sentence was too harsh?

Are there other cases where someone has been sent to prison for the offense of failing to keep a proper lookout? I dont know the answer to that but I suggest that if we do intend to bang people up for it we are going to need a bigger prison.

 

[Achosenman]

Okay, the fishing vessel was at fault, we seem to all broadly agreed on that.

So, specifically in terms of UK law, what is your reasoning to support the conclusion that the sentence was too harsh?

Simply the actions of the James 2 skipper. They loaded the pistol, cocked it, placed it to their temple and the fishing boat skipper gave their elbow the fateful nudge.

 

[Achosenman]

Mine is far superior I admit, except in poor weather if spray or rain was heavy enough to hurt my eyes, then I could use my radar (except that Marr didn't use either of his two working sets).
Wheelhouses and ships' bridges are known to insulate people, mentally as well as physically, from the sea and weather conditions, prevent a good lookout, and stop night vision developing.
I'm sure some studies, tests or surveys must have been done on this subject and they would make interesting reading.

That is my point. At night, with nothing to focus on, the human eye will "park" its focus a few feet in front of the person. There are scanning techniques that help prevent this phenomenon. It is why objects are routinely missed in the dark along with not looking off-centre to use the more sensitive part of the eye. He could have had everything turned off and still missed the un-lit James 2.