RYA Survey To Shape Future Direction

[Mark-1]

VHF radios are bought and used by many who will not pay around £200 to get a licence.

And the advent of cheap (but brilliant) multiband handhelds* mean many of us who have the license aren't operating within its remit, anyway. Plus massive traffic by unlicensed users on M1/M2. Plus people who just don't bother and never seem to be prosecuted.

Feels like the "compulsory VHF license horse" has already bolted, nobody cares, and UK law should have reflected this decades ago.

*My utterly non‑compliant Quansheng UV‑5R Plus does everything I need from a radio at a cost of £11 on AliExpress. Yes, Eleven! It has a cleaner output than my branded marine handhelds. I can be out on the water, Tx to my kids on PMR, talk to the Marina on 80, plus hear the traffic from vessels to the marina so I know I'm not butting in. Then for general interest I can listen to aircraft overhead and hear the action on Ch0. At home I can listen to autistic nerds on their Ham Net and pretend I'm not one of them. All on the same £11 radio, it's superb. Recommended here on YBW, thanks to whoever that was. A game changer.

 

[st599]

Last time I looked at a Quangsheng on a test rig, it hadvisible harmonics upto the 12th.

There's a reason that Marine VHFs require type approval.

 

[Mark-1]

Last time I looked at a Quangsheng on a test rig, it had visible harmonics up to the 12th.

From what I've seen that's atypical, I certainly hope so!

There's a reason that Marine VHFs require type approval.

No quarrel with that. I'm pretty relaxed about the need for compulsory personal licensing but kit shouldn't be bleeding all over the spectrum. (....and I assume that would be much easier to Police.)

 

[Ian_Edwards]

I've just completed the survey.
As a retired cruiser who sails NW Scotland for 100+ days per summer, I found very little of that survey had relevance to me at all!
Basically I just want to be left alone, to enjoy the challenge of sailing, the wild life and the beauty of NW Scotland and the islands.
I want the RYA to keep the bureaucracy off my back, and keep life simple.
That's the ONLY reason I support them.
It gives me the impression that they want to tie people up in a bureaucratic bundle where you need a certificate to walk through the door of a sailing club!

 

[dgadee]

I agree. My club has just done a member survey. I have sailed for near 50 years. There is only one respondent who has no sailing qualifications at all. I presume that's me.

 

[rotrax]

I agree. My club has just done a member survey. I have sailed for near 50 years. There is only one respondent who has no sailing qualifications at all. I presume that's me.

Absolutely! The best qualification is hours at the helm.

 

[benjenbav]

Absolutely! The best qualification is hours at the helm.

Not sure that I wholly agree with that comment. Although, of course, long experience is invaluable.

I had spent 40+ years messing about in boats without qualifications (other than ICC and VHF) when, some 15 years ago, it struck me that it would be interesting to see how I measured up to the YM standard.

Answer was that I needed to do some work on managing a crew. Most of my experience was as a singlehander and I was not a natural delegator or team player.

The process of acquiring this qualification helped me to learn new skills and to look at things in a different way. I’m glad I did it.

 

[dgadee]

You have a point. I am sure critical assessment of crew leadership will be helpful if you want to be a leader. I actually get that critical assessment from my own crew. Luckily I have no desire to return the assessment - she does not take criticism well.

 

[Boathook]

They sent out another survey yesterday "Help shape our future: Participate in the Reflections on Water Survey" or is it the same one ?

Either way, the cruising section questions only allowed one tick where as my decision as to where and when to go, is based upon many factors. I ended up ticking "other" to these questions.

I have contacted the RYA via there contact form on the web (no email address readily visible) complaining and wondering whether my membership (since the mid 1980's) is now worth it.

 

[winch2]

Absolutely! The best qualification is hours at the helm.

SWMBO has DS and 6 years experience. Ive sailed for 50 yrs with nout. The times I have to run back down the deck and lunge for the tiller when she's in 'command'?. So yes at the risk of awakening the forum training Gods... you have a point.

 

[ylop]

SWMBO has DS and 6 years experience. Ive sailed for 50 yrs with nout. The times I have to run back down the deck and lunge for the tiller when she's in 'command'?. So yes at the risk of awakening the forum training Gods... you have a point.

Who is the skipper? One of the reasons my wife won’t do DS is she thinks it’s far better to have one clear person making the decisions. That is not necessarily the person on the helm. If the skipper is running down the deck to grab the tiller that suggests to me a failing on the skipper ;-)

 

[flaming]

SWMBO has DS and 6 years experience. Ive sailed for 50 yrs with nout. The times I have to run back down the deck and lunge for the tiller when she's in 'command'?. So yes at the risk of awakening the forum training Gods... you have a point.

I also know people who've been sailing 30 years with no qualifications but I wouldn't trust to wrap a sheet round the winch the right way. And I know people who've been sailing for 30 years with no qualifications that I would follow to the ends of the earth.

And then I know "zero to hero" yachtmaster types that I struggle to see how they even passed comp crew. And I know "zero to hero" types that I would be extremely happy to send off in my boat on a delivery with no concerns.

In my experience, of all 4 of those types, the 2nd, the 30 year no quals but competent type.... They're the rarest.

 

[Mark-1]

30 year no quals but competent type.... They're the rarest.

I'm a little skeptical.

Can you give one or two examples of incompetent people with 30 years sailing under their belts, how you knew they didn't have any qualifications and how their incompetence manifested itself.

If I'm honest I'm also a little skeptical the zero to hero YMs can be *that* bad. That means they would need to have done 3 months 24hour a day sailing, plus an impartial exam, and still have no feel for sailing. (Although you made the test for that 'Deliver your boat." which, if you're anything like me, is a far, far higher standard than 'competent'. Tif Needel is an exceptionally competent driver, but I wouldn't let him drive my car.)

 

[flaming]

I'm a little skeptical.

Can you give one or two examples of incompetent people with 30 years sailing under their belts, how you knew they didn't have any qualifications and how their incompetence manifested itself.

If I'm honest I'm also a little skeptical the zero to hero YMs can be *that* bad. That means they would need to have done 3 months 24hour a day sailing, plus an impartial exam, and still have no feel for sailing. (Although you made the test for that 'Deliver your boat." which, if you're anything like me, is a far, far higher standard than 'competent'. Tif Needel is an exceptionally competent driver, but I wouldn't let him drive my car.)

Sure.

The nature of doing the sort of sailing I do now, and that I once scratched a living driving corporate boats, is that I meet a lot of sailors. Guess I'm also the sort of person that when rafted up in Yarmouth etc offers a beer and strikes up a conversation.
On the YM zero to heros being "that" bad. My best examples are from the corporate days. Newly qualified commercial endorsed YM, mid 20s at a guess. Saw me tie up my boat, came over to ask how I'd tied that knot. It was a bowline. At least he was trying to learn.. Another one had to ask how the mainsheet jammer worked, as he'd only ever sailed boats where the mainsheet was led to a winch. In fairness he wasn't actually employed as a skipper at that point, but he'd just got the YM and wanted to move from the maintenance crew to skippering.

On the 30 year experienced being incompetent... The number of downtide rafting attempts I've survived... Chatting over a beer later the number of those who are weirdly proud of the fact that they've never done any courses is notable. The very worst I've ever seen took a massive gash out of another boat with the wildest approach possible, downwind and downtide on a river pontoon in 20+ knots. Was probably doing 4 knots when he collected the boat in front of the gap he was aiming for. When the bloke who's boat had been damaged, *slightly* angrily, suggested that the offender "get some bloody lessons" the reply was a scoff that he's been sailing for decades and what could they teach him? How to moor without damaging a boat you weren't even trying to raft alongside seemed the obvious answer to me.... His boat bore the evidence that this probably wasn't a one off...

Others may have 30 years of experience, but it's not really... It's the same year's worth done 30 times. Same places visited, no heavy weather etc. Nothing wrong with that, it is a leisure activity not SAS selection, but it's not the same. And there it's the little details. You see the sail trim, the fact that they have never touched the kicker, the cars have never moved, the topping lift isn't allowing the main to set properly. You see the approach to the marina berth, and it's clearly a stressful experience, despite the fact they've owned the boat for 20 years.

On the flip side one of my regular crew started sailing as a kid on the Rona trust boats. They put her through YM so she could become a watch leader at a fairly young age, now she skippers for them and has delivered my boat without me on several occasions. Her competence, in my opinion, is way, way higher than the relatively short time period she's been sailing might suggest. And the training she's done, and her openness to learn, is a huge part of that.

Thinking about it. The one thing all my horror stories, whether qualified or not, have in common is that they're all men.

 

[Beneteau381]

Sure.

The nature of doing the sort of sailing I do now, and that I once scratched a living driving corporate boats, is that I meet a lot of sailors. Guess I'm also the sort of person that when rafted up in Yarmouth etc offers a beer and strikes up a conversation.
On the YM zero to heros being "that" bad. My best examples are from the corporate days. Newly qualified commercial endorsed YM, mid 20s at a guess. Saw me tie up my boat, came over to ask how I'd tied that knot. It was a bowline. At least he was trying to learn.. Another one had to ask how the mainsheet jammer worked, as he'd only ever sailed boats where the mainsheet was led to a winch. In fairness he wasn't actually employed as a skipper at that point, but he'd just got the YM and wanted to move from the maintenance crew to skippering.

On the 30 year experienced being incompetent... The number of downtide rafting attempts I've survived... Chatting over a beer later the number of those who are weirdly proud of the fact that they've never done any courses is notable. The very worst I've ever seen took a massive gash out of another boat with the wildest approach possible, downwind and downtide on a river pontoon in 20+ knots. Was probably doing 4 knots when he collected the boat in front of the gap he was aiming for. When the bloke who's boat had been damaged, *slightly* angrily, suggested that the offender "get some bloody lessons" the reply was a scoff that he's been sailing for decades and what could they teach him? How to moor without damaging a boat you weren't even trying to raft alongside seemed the obvious answer to me.... His boat bore the evidence that this probably wasn't a one off...

Others may have 30 years of experience, but it's not really... It's the same year's worth done 30 times. Same places visited, no heavy weather etc. Nothing wrong with that, it is a leisure activity not SAS selection, but it's not the same. And there it's the little details. You see the sail trim, the fact that they have never touched the kicker, the cars have never moved, the topping lift isn't allowing the main to set properly. You see the approach to the marina berth, and it's clearly a stressful experience, despite the fact they've owned the boat for 20 years.

On the flip side one of my regular crew started sailing as a kid on the Rona trust boats. They put her through YM so she could become a watch leader at a fairly young age, now she skippers for them and has delivered my boat without me on several occasions. Her competence, in my opinion, is way, way higher than the relatively short time period she's been sailing might suggest. And the training she's done, and her openness to learn, is a huge part of that.

Thinking about it. The one thing all my horror stories, whether qualified or not, have in common is that they're all men.

I was once the dock side boat of a raft in Kilmore Quay. As the evening wore on a boat of yottie racing buggers tied up on the outside of about the 4 th boat. They did what the others had done and just cleated to cleated. Most of them hauled ass to shore, it was closing time nearly. I stopped the last one, the skipper and insisted he tie up properly explaining that my cleats and lines ashore weren’t meant to take the load of five boats. I insisted that he do the right thing and take their lines ashore to safeguard us all. Then when he was done I got a bottle out! The proper way to go sailing eh?

 

[Boathook]

I've sailed on a boat with father and 18 year old son. He had just done his yachtmaster. Father left him to take boat out of Cowes. I was most impressed how he organised things and made sure everyone was ready, etc. All done at a suitable speed.

 

[Forum Admin Team]

Thread suspended pending review.

Several posts removed from thread (and user).

 

[Mark-1]

Sure.

The nature of doing the sort of sailing I do now, and that I once scratched a living driving corporate boats, is that I meet a lot of sailors. Guess I'm also the sort of person that when rafted up in Yarmouth etc offers a beer and strikes up a conversation.
On the YM zero to heros being "that" bad. My best examples are from the corporate days. Newly qualified commercial endorsed YM, mid 20s at a guess. Saw me tie up my boat, came over to ask how I'd tied that knot. It was a bowline. At least he was trying to learn.. Another one had to ask how the mainsheet jammer worked, as he'd only ever sailed boats where the mainsheet was led to a winch. In fairness he wasn't actually employed as a skipper at that point, but he'd just got the YM and wanted to move from the maintenance crew to skippering.

Whilst that is a terrible look they could have learned a bowline in 60 seconds and learn how to use a jammer in 0.0003 seconds. (The fact he asked about something as self explanatory as jammer is making he had problems that weren't related to knowledge of sailing!) Clearly he's been sailing for 3 solid months so he must have had a way to make loops or was just working around. I don't accept either of those two were not capable cruisers. I'd bet good money either of them could have sailed themselves to Lamlash and back perfectly cheerfully for the rest of their lives.

As for the RYA and knots, on that I agree. When they got to the part of a dinghy course that features (two simply knots) I saw my daughter (aged 8) show both instructors how to tie a clove hitch so they could then show the class. Every year since she's been the only one who is on top of knots out of students, instructors the lot. (TBH, except the grey haired instructors.) Same with Cubs/Beavers, very little rope work. Kid I knew and regularly practiced all the basic knots and al my mates did too. I guess Minecraft trumps knots, Manic Miner doesn't.

On the 30 year experienced being incompetent... The number of downtide rafting attempts I've survived... Chatting over a beer later the number of those who are weirdly proud of the fact that they've never done any courses is notable. The very worst I've ever seen took a massive gash out of another boat with the wildest approach possible, downwind and downtide on a river pontoon in 20+ knots. Was probably doing 4 knots when he collected the boat in front of the gap he was aiming for. When the bloke who's boat had been damaged, *slightly* angrily, suggested that the offender "get some bloody lessons" the reply was a scoff that he's been sailing for decades and what could they teach him? How to moor without damaging a boat you weren't even trying to raft alongside seemed the obvious answer to me.... His boat bore the evidence that this probably wasn't a one off...

Again, you'd seen a couple of sh*t sailors. Whatever their problem was (I suspect old age) it certainly wasn't going to be solved by a sailing course and I can't believe they had never worked out the correct approach, it's common sense.

Others may have 30 years of experience, but it's not really... It's the same year's worth done 30 times. Same places visited, no heavy weather etc. Nothing wrong with that, it is a leisure activity not SAS selection, but it's not the same.

Well yes, but a course doesn't solve that problem, and there are far, far better ways to achieve "different" than a course.

You see the sail trim, the fact that they have never touched the kicker, the cars have never moved, the topping lift isn't allowing the main to set properly. You see the approach to the marina berth, and it's clearly a stressful experience, despite the fact they've owned the boat for 20 years.

Again, if someone isn't interested in correctly tuning their rig a course isn't going to help. Assuming the course covers it they will just forget about it because they don't care. If they cared they'd already have read up on it or watched a youtube video.


You really haven't convinced me. You've seen a few people f**k up but you really have no idea why. I very much doubt they'd had 30 years of successful sailing without ever noticing you're usually better off with uptide upwind approach. In the unlikely event they hadn't worked that out in 30 years a course isn't going to help much. Then you've seen two zero to hero guys with gaps in their knowledge, but gaps in their knowledge that can be fixed in seconds and wouldn't stop them sailing boats around with a smile on their face.

 

[Mark-1]

I've sailed on a boat with father and 18 year old son. He had just done his yachtmaster. Father left him to take boat out of Cowes. I was most impressed how he organised things and made sure everyone was ready, etc. All done at a suitable speed.

You can do anything when you're young.

 

[flaming]

Whilst that is a terrible look they could have learned a bowline in 60 seconds and learn how to use a jammer in 0.0003 seconds. (The fact he asked about something as self explanatory as jammer is making he had problems that weren't related to knowledge of sailing!) Clearly he's been sailing for 3 solid months so he must have had a way to make loops or was just working around. I don't accept either of those two were not capable cruisers. I'd bet good money either of them could have sailed themselves to Lamlash and back perfectly cheerfully for the rest of their lives.

As for the RYA and knots, on that I agree. When they got to the part of a dinghy course that features (two simply knots) I saw my daughter (aged 8) show both instructors how to tie a clove hitch so they could then show the class. Every year since she's been the only one who is on top of knots out of students, instructors the lot. (TBH, except the grey haired instructors.) Same with Cubs/Beavers, very little rope work. Kid I knew and regularly practiced all the basic knots and al my mates did too. I guess Minecraft trumps knots, Manic Miner doesn't.


Again, you'd seen a couple of sh*t sailors. Whatever their problem was (I suspect old age) it certainly wasn't going to be solved by a sailing course and I can't believe they had never worked out the correct approach, it's common sense.


Well yes, but a course doesn't solve that problem, and there are far, far achieve "different" than a course.



Again, if someone isn't interested in correctly tuning their rig a course isn't going to help. Assuming the course covers it they will just forget about it because they don't care. If they cared they'd alreday have read up on it or watched a youtube video.


You really haven't convinced me. You've seen a few people f**k up but you really have no idea why. I very much doubt they'd had 30 years of successful sailing without ever noticing you're usually better off with uptide upwind approach. In the unlikely event they hadn't worked that out in 30 years a course isn't going to help much. Then you've seen two zero to hero guys with gaps in their knowledge, but gaps in their knowledge that can be fixed in seconds and wouldn't stop them sailing boats around with a smile on their face.

I don't think I was making the point you think I am...

You asked for examples of the categories... I gave you them....

My point was not that one way is necessarily the way forward, or that everyone should take a course.

My point was quite simply that I've met people who have done all the courses and you wouldn't know. And people who have done all the courses and are exceptional sailors. But in this section "done courses and are good" is more prevalent.

I've also met people who have sailed for decades shunning courses and are utter liabilities. And people who have sailed for decades with no formal teaching and are very good sailors. But the latter are much rarer.