ylop
Well-Known Member
like these:
The IMO Marine Communication Resolution
And the ITU Radio Regulations (esp Ch VII and IX)
Why would that be someone on the forums job?
RYA Survey To Shape Future Direction
- Thread starter RunAgroundHard
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The IMO Marine Communication Resolution
And the ITU Radio Regulations (esp Ch VII and IX)
dgadee
Well-Known Member
Good for ships of "500 gross tonnage or more" and I bet used in all kinds of everday circumstances, e.g; Ship is sinking: “I am sinking. Please proceed to my assistance. What is your ETA at our distress position?”
You are really talking about educating ships officers who can't speak English. And they are not required, just suggestions for clear usage. So, not really standard.
ylop
Well-Known Member
I don’t think the IMO document says that, and the ITU one definitely does not.
I’m not sure what you mean.
Actually - I think clear unambiguous comms is just as, maybe more important in native speakers who assume the receiving party understands their meaning.
I’m not sure what you are saying; lots of standards are not mandatory. Although I think you will find that at least some of this is written into national laws. I’m still not sure why having international standards on radio usage would be a bad thing, or why the training of operators to those standards is either a bad idea, nor the fault of the RYA for making access to such training available to its members (and others) at fairly low cost.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
It does say that as a requirement for certification of officers. Always read your sources.
I don't see the need for VHF examination. Expensive, takes more than the 20 minutes needed to learn, and just a form of rent-seeking by the RYA.
I don't see the need for VHF examination. Expensive, takes more than the 20 minutes needed to learn, and just a form of rent-seeking by the RYA.
st599
Well-Known Member
As said previously, it's a CEPT international requirement, the RYA do not set the syllabus nor the exam requirements.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
st599
Well-Known Member
Sorry, the RYA do not set the syllabus and exam requirements. The CEPT set the European requirements
Harmonised CEPT examination procedures for the Short Range Certificate (SRC) for non-SOLAS vessels: https://docdb.cept.org/download/4419
Not sure what your point is about US sailing, they aren't in ITU Region 1 so will have different requirements under the ITU radio regulations.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Unless I'm missing something (always possible) that document doesn't say a license has to be compulsory.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
Or that it is more than a recommendation. And we see many recommendations for standards which never get anywhere.
What would US boaters have to say about foreigners telling them what do?
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
For me the clincher is that it's largely unenforced. If France was worried about us polluting their frequencies with poor radio etiquette I'd have thought they'd be far more concerned about enforcement than licensing.
"We feel strongly that on paper licenses should be compulsory, but we don't care if you have them or not in practice." is a weird position to take.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
There's a Freudian research project here: "Anal-retentiveness and the regulation of sailing."
st599
Well-Known Member
The ITU term for a standard is "Recommendation".
But the key for the UK is that the last government bought a satellite company and need to do some horse trading to get some international frequencies for it. A breach wouldn't help, so don't expect any movement on a simple licence issue.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
It is in the hands of the RYA to simplify the provision of boating licences. They decide the process and the requirements. Nothing to do with satellites.
They are happy rent-seeking and will see no need to change anything.
They are happy rent-seeking and will see no need to change anything.
ylop
Well-Known Member
I did. Nowhere does it suggest the content is not intended to be used by smaller vessels. Did you read the radio regs? Nothing to do with vessel size in there at all.
Obviously a man of your intellect can learn the entire content in 20 minutes and I sort of agree that it does have a lot of stuff in there which is a bit tedious and from what I can tell on this forum quite a lot of people instantly forget anyway. However there were people on my course who took a lot longer than 20 minutes to get what you might call the basics. As most training centres offer an online option now you can go at whatever pace you wish - if you are already familiar and just sorting the formalities you can probably do it in 1/2 the time. If you’ve never actually used any radio in your life then you can go very slowly.
But it’s not the RYA who set the syllabus - that’s determined internationally and anyone who has been around for a decade or more will recall the UK getting its knuckles wrapped for being too soft and skimping on the syllabus.
It’s a strange way of extracting money out of people where they do very little to force anyone to do the course/exam! If I was at the RYA and had make more money from VHF training on my objectives, I’d call Ofcom up and say - standards are slipping can you make a few token prosecutions to scare people into coming on courses; and I’d see if I could make it a course pre-requisite for Day Skipper or similar.
I’m intrigued though, those of you who think the RYA are exploiting yachtspeople through VHF training - have you written to them, or better yet attended any meetings with them (like an AGM) to suggest that the RYA might say lobby the government for a simpler UK only VHF operators license for leisure users requiring much less time / cost? It’s a membership organisation - all its members are entitled to attend the AGM and make motions on issues that matter.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
Nowhere does it specify amateur sailors nor their needs. It is clearly for non native English speakers of large craft.
Mobile phones are more complicated than VHF. We let kids loose on phones.
I am not a member of the RYA. Why should I become a member just to tell them what I think? Near monopolists are hardly going to give up their monopoly without a fight, anyway.
Knuckles wrapped? That was some in the EU: the land of monopoly and the German desire for regulation. We are not in it anymore.
If leisure boaters in the US can do it without hassle then why not us?
Mobile phones are more complicated than VHF. We let kids loose on phones.
I am not a member of the RYA. Why should I become a member just to tell them what I think? Near monopolists are hardly going to give up their monopoly without a fight, anyway.
Knuckles wrapped? That was some in the EU: the land of monopoly and the German desire for regulation. We are not in it anymore.
If leisure boaters in the US can do it without hassle then why not us?
ylop
Well-Known Member
VHF marine radio licensing is the same regardless of your amateur/professional status. If you disagree with that - talk to Ofcom, Your MP, etc - it’s not really the RYA’s “fault” though.
No idea why you think it is only applicable to large craft - whilst there are bits that are irrelevant to small pleasure vessels most of it is the same as taught on the SRC course. Whilst it is important for non-native English speakers it is important for native speakers to have clear concise communication too.
Why do you keep comparing to phones? Surely you can see that a device which broadcasts to everyone with a very finite bandwidth needs totally different rules to govern it from one with seemingly unlimited capacity for one to one dialogue.
Have you seen what happens though when the children of millennials use phones for voice comms for the first few times. Nobody has taught them and because things which to “us” seem totally intuitive and which we learned from others through observation they don’t necessarily understand - eg, often they answer without speaking. Millenials were the start of preferring text to voice, so Gen Alpha are often not good. And give Gen Z or Gen Alpha a traditional landline phone (which actually has a far nicer user interface than a typical DSC Radio) and it’s quite comical.
But your logic is based on the premise that the organisation is a commercial venture. It’s a membership organisation - its monopoly is not the commercial training, it’s on representing sailors, especially leisure sailors. If there’s enough people who think like you they will represent the viewpoint.
No the radio stuff is nothing to do with the EU, it’s another pan-regional body which we are still a member of.
Well if you’d bothered to read the radio regulations you’d see how they geographically split up and it might be more obvious. You do realise that Americans going overseas do need a radio operators certificate? Which has a cost attached? And that getting an MMSI in the USA costs money? And even if you sail domestically there is a voluntary US Sailing “VHF Confidence” Course…. In the land of the free - boats typically require registration and are definitely not free! In contrast you have an option to only use your radio for emergency purposes and then you can legally avoid all costs. Ironically if the government/ofcom try to introduce annual fees or get active with enforcement I’m sure the RYA will actually be fighting your corner.
Mark-1
Well-Known Member
Great, we should make it voluntary.
Of course there's no requirement for a license to TX on M1/M2.
I'd guess, if you exclude Ch80, in my area 80% of weekend VHF transmissions occur on M1/M2 by users with no license. (Including by juniors.)
So I'd strongly argue the VHF license became more bother than it was worth a decade or two ago and large numbers of totally unqualified people using it causes few or no problems.
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dgadee
Well-Known Member
You are making a regulatory mountain out of a molehill. VHF radios are bought and used by many who will not pay around £200 to get a licence. Mmsi numbers are allocated to 2nd hand radios on different boats, hardly anyone uses more than the basic functions, etc. etc.
The RYA charges £76 for a simple exam and piece of paper. Why? Because they can.
Vhf is a safety measure. Whether you use formal modes or just get on and say "help" does not matter. I told my crew, just press the red button and remember to press/let go the handset button. The VHF sends position. What more do you need apart from calling up 16 and (probably) 12 for a berth?
ylop
Well-Known Member
I’d suggest you are the one making the mountain. If you don’t want to pay for the certificate - then join the many who don’t bother. I don’t know what proportion of people who (a) own a vhf use one unlicensed; (b) own a vhf for emergency use only without a license. The fact the RYA provide the option at a relatively low, once in a lifetime cost is a bonus for sailors who wish to comply. If the RYA don’t do it - DFT would probably outsource it to Capita or someone like that, or create a whole new dept full of civil servants that has to cover its costs. Look at the DVSA to see what happens when gov do licensing! 6 month wait for driving tests - “bots” offering to jump the booking queue for £200 on a test that already costs £85 (both parts) + instruction; people travelling all over the country to take a test. The government could scrap the requirement completely for people who don’t leave Uk waters but given how many leisure boaters are on the South Coast and Irish Sea that would create a two tier system. The RYA could push for that - but it would only do so if its members wanted it. I’ve heard far more sailors complain about the quality of comms and misuse of 16 than the cost of the exam.
I also think you are underestimating the difficulty that people who have never used a vhf have in achieving clear, effective comms - where to hold the mic, how fast to speak etc. “Probably 12” highlights the the sort of issue! It’s probably not 12. Simplex/duplex channels confuse people. The constant radio check issue frustrates people and blocks important channel. “Help” might work - but a properly formatted distress call communicates ALL the information far quicker than a conversation back n forth. Your DSC call should of course get across most of that info automatically but the CG will make you repeat a lot of information anyway. But there might be a rib 1 mile away with no DSC who can come and help in the time that the MCGA are still teasing out the details - and when as speed picking up “help” is hard/unlikely but the structure of a proper mayday means if you miss the start you very quickly realise this is not someone asking for a radio check etc. Then there’s the people who make a mayday call when it’s not life threatening etc.
dgadee
Well-Known Member
You are not exactly selling the current system.
I asked my wife if she wanted to get a licence. How much? she said. "No way! ". A sensible approach.
I asked my wife if she wanted to get a licence. How much? she said. "No way! ". A sensible approach.