RYA Survey To Shape Future Direction

[st599]

Also the majority of the racing that I have taken part in from clubs, the RYA was never a presence in any form.

Except that, to run a race under the RRS, the club must be affiliated to the RYA and the boat must be entered in to the race by a member of an affiliated club or a personal member of the RYA.

 

[lustyd]

It is the Governing Body for watersports. Separate from Government.

Just taking the seagrass issue as one example, they seem to align very quickly with government policy and entirely disregard the needs of cruisers. They also disregarded the science in order to facilitate a pointless carbon offsetting program which has been used to avoid any real climate action while simultaneously allowing large profits for certain organisations.

Of course, it could be that they came to that corrupt conclusion entirely separately from government, who am I to judge. Either way, they don't represent me as a cruising sailor.

 

[benjenbav]

Almost by definition, racing requires some degree of organisation, whether it’s to set out a level playing field for competitors, to decide where and when they’re doing it, to deal with their complaints about misfortunes undergone etc.

Conversely, many cruising sailors are doing it because they want to get away from an overly organised and regulated world and experience nature on their own terms.

Any bureaucracy is going to struggle to be busy and fulfilled catering to a clientele that fundamentally wants it to leave them alone.

Hence, it’s hardly surprising that the RYA has to concentrate mostly on the needs of those who need its services: the racing and training members.

 

[lustyd]

Any bureaucracy is going to struggle to be busy and fulfilled catering to a clientele that fundamentally wants it to leave them alone.

I do agree, but it would be nice if they would protect our freedoms while leaving us largely alone. I'd pay the annual fee for an organisation that brings me clean white diesel at the dock (like Ireland managed quite easily before anyone says it's hard!), keeps anchorages open, works with foreign governments to provide simple and straightforward guidance on how to cruise abroad. Finally an organisation that pushes for legal electronic charting and standards without arsing about in comittees for 30 years.

I don't think it's hard to appeal to cruisers, but they've missed the mark on every occasion I can think of.

 

[Mark-1]

Presumably because the government seem to “abdicate” a certain level of responsibility to them to run training etc… anyone complaining about this presumably wishes for the inevitable alternative - regulation by a genuine QUANGO funded by mandatory payments and answerable to nobody!

I sense it's the opposite way round. Government just don't GAF and would happy to have no licenses or a 5 minute online course and the RYA sidle up and say "You realize there's this thing that you should really be doing and training could be sold for, we are willing to do that as long as we can charge for it...".

VHF licenses. Since mobile phones VHF etiquette has never been less important and policing has been zero throughout my lifetime. Ofcom are in control of installation licensing and it's free, online and takes no time. The RYA are in charge of personal licensing and guess what it requires a bloody course with a human trainer. If the RYA hadn't got involved I suspect we'd be like America with no exam or license at all.

I've already done ICC's . Used to be needless and you could could just get a club officer to sign one off. Now there's a massive overhead for many people chartering abroad and something that needs to be done every five years when it could be done every 30 years or 50 years and likely would have never been needed if it wasn't already available. I don't think the cause and effect there is the way round people think it is.

Cruiser's want to be left alone. The RYA can't make money out of leaving people alone, far from minimising red tape and qualification expenditure the RYA have every interest in maximising it. I'm surprised the RYA didn't offer to manage dog licenses when they got phased out. A two day dog management course with yearly renewals, lovely jubbly .

 

[Mark-1]

Except that, to run a race under the RRS, the club must be affiliated to the RYA and the boat must be entered in to the race by a member of an affiliated club or a personal member of the RYA.

...and dinghy racing they manage handicaps with is undoubtedly useful and exactly the sort of thing the RYA should be doing. (Those handicaps should be available online, though.)

I've always wondered what happens if buddys get together and run a race under the RRS with no club involvement. How would that be policed? Nobody has ever asked me for evidence of club membership at an open. And once again, how inclusive is that? As I said above, my club offers places on every junior event to kids who "wouldn't normally get the chance to sail". By definition they aren't members of an affiliated club. Can they not do junior races?

But yeah I don't think many people are arguing the RYA aren't useful to Racers and Professional Sailing Schools. The debate seems to be over cruisers.

 

[st599]

VHF licenses. Since mobile phones VHF etiquette has never been less important and policing has been zero throughout my lifetime. Ofcom are in control of installation licensing and it's free, online and takes no time. The RYA are in charge of personal licensing and guess what it requires a bloody course with a human trainer. If the RYA hadn't got involved I suspect we'd be like America with no exam or license at all.

The VHF license is regulated in Europe on behalf of the ITU by the CEPT. It's a pan-European syllabus. The RYA were actually censured because they made the test too easy.

It's not in the RYA's gift to have no exam.

 

[st599]

Just taking the seagrass issue as one example, they seem to align very quickly with government policy and entirely disregard the needs of cruisers. They also disregarded the science in order to facilitate a pointless carbon offsetting program which has been used to avoid any real climate action while simultaneously allowing large profits for certain organisations.

I'm not sure the RYA are in a position to take a view on the science. The Johnson government mandated that carbon sequestration in seagrass, water meadows etc. would be used to limit the amount of carbon reduction that would be needed. RYA joined some schemes to see if it was possible to still allow cruising sailors in to bays being used for sequestration. The alternative was to have no method of accessing such bays

 

[RunAgroundHard]

.. VHF licenses. Since mobile phones VHF etiquette has never been less important and policing has been zero throughout my lifetime. Ofcom are in control of installation licensing and it's free, online and takes no time. The RYA are in charge of personal licensing and guess what it requires a bloody course with a human trainer. If the RYA hadn't got involved I suspect we'd be like America with no exam or license at all. ...

The VHF course and training can be done entirely on line with no support from a real person. Duration 6 to 8 hours. The formal exam for the certificate does need to be invigilated and is therefore face to face. Duration 1 hour. On line courses are £70 payable to the training centre, plus the £70 VHF exam fee payable to the RYA. Valid for life. Cheap as chips and as it is valid for life, internationally recognised, time wise, not a lot.

 

[lustyd]

I'm not sure the RYA are in a position to take a view on the science.

They could very easily have taken a position on science, given that the argument was entirely around science that had been falsified and proven to be so. They could have funded real scientists to give some answers, they could have presented the arguments seen on these forums. The access to the bays was being withdrawn based upon this, but instead of standing up for their members they rolled over and said "yes sir, of course sir, whatever you need sir!".

And hence we get comments like the one from Doug748. If the RYA don't like that then they need to reform and grow a backbone, but for now I don't think Doug was being unfair at all, the RYA are far from independent from government.

 

[Mark-1]

The VHF course and training can be done entirely on line with no support from a real person. Duration 6 to 8 hours. The formal exam for the certificate does need to be invigilated and is therefore face to face. Duration 1 hour. On line courses are £70 payable to the training centre, plus the £70 VHF exam fee payable to the RYA. Valid for life. Cheap as chips and as it is valid for life, internationally recognised, time wise, not a lot.

Whereas it could be zero time, and zero money as it is in the USA and as dog licenses are and as Vessel installations are.

My gut feel is the government had long since given up enforcing VHF licenses and would have been happy to just quit and the RYA said, 'Tell you what, we'll do it.'

And £70 is a lot of money to many people and 6-8 hours + a drive to a test location is a lot of time for almost anybody in full time work. If you're looking for inclusivity you wouldn't bother with VHF licenses in 2025. (You can't even get the thing until you're 16!)

 

[Mark-1]

The VHF license is regulated in Europe on behalf of the ITU by the CEPT. It's a pan-European syllabus. The RYA were actually censured because they made the test too easy.

It's not in the RYA's gift to have no exam.

Weasel words, nothing in that forces the UK to require a VHF license for UK Vessels in UK waters it's a recommendation at best. And when you say it's not in the RYA's gift to have no exam that's Weasel words again. If the RYA weren't offering to manage it, would the UK government have set up a national training regime and examination body for something they don't enforce and don't care about? Or would they have gone down the USA/Dog License model. I know where my money is. The cart came before the horse. The RYA said they'd do the training/examining and the Government said, "Well if we don't have to do anything I suppose we can keep it."

 

[st599]

Weasel words, nothing in that forces the UK to require a VHF license for UK Vessels in UK waters it's a recommendation at best. And when you say it's not in the RYA's gift to have no exam that's Weasel words again. If the RYA weren't offering to manage it, would the UK government have set up a national training regime and examination body for something they don't enforce and don't care about? Or would they have gone down the USA/Dog License model. I know where my money is. The cart came before the horse. The RYA said they'd do the training/examining and the Government said, "Well if we don't have to do anything I suppose we can keep it."

The UK Government have other examination bodies for RF licensing.

The problem is that, despite what the RYA course says, VHF is not line of sight. You need international co-ordination. If you start breaching in one area, getting beneficial agreement in others becomes almost impossible. At the European level, CEPT co-ordinate RF comms - they write the syllabuses for and do co-ordination for marine, amateur, business radio, broadcast etc.

The USA is different, it only needs to co-ordinate with 2 near neighbours, UK needs to co-ordinate with many.

 

[Mark-1]

The UK Government have other examination bodies for RF licensing.

The problem is that, despite what the RYA course says, VHF is not line of sight. You need international co-ordination. If you start breaching in one area, getting beneficial agreement in others becomes almost impossible. At the European level, CEPT co-ordinate RF comms - they write the syllabuses for and do co-ordination for marine, amateur, business radio, broadcast etc.

The USA is different, it only needs to co-ordinate with 2 near neighbours, UK needs to co-ordinate with many.

If there's no requirement form Europe for us to enforce having licenses I can't see how there can be a requirement to have licenses at all. France is hardly saying to us "we insist you have a compulsory licenses, but we don't care if the people using VHFs have licenses."

However, if France feel strongly about VHF licences let's use it as leverage for border control. We stop any requirement for VHF licenses in our waters today, if France then prevents any migrant departures from its coast to the UK for 12 consecutive months, we reinstate the licensing requirement. (I make no comment on whether border control is a good thing, merely making the point that if France really care about compulsory UK VHF licenses then we have leverage if we want it.)

 

[seeSimon]

Whereas it could be zero time, and zero money as it is in the USA and as dog licenses are and as Vessel installations are.

My gut feel is the government had long since given up enforcing VHF licenses and would have been happy to just quit and the RYA said, 'Tell you what, we'll do it.'

And £70 is a lot of money to many people and 6-8 hours + a drive to a test location is a lot of time for almost anybody in full time work. If you're looking for inclusivity you wouldn't bother with VHF licenses in 2025. (You can't even get the thing until you're 16!)

Thinking I might update my existing, ancient (198???) Licence to include the "new" DSC elements, I made enquires...hereabouts was quoted almost £200 for a TWELVE HOUR face to face course (plus incurring substantial parking charges, and "meals/refreshments" then necessary.

...I've decided no. I think I can manage as-is?

 

[seeSimon]

The UK Government have other examination bodies for RF licensing.

The problem is that, despite what the RYA course says, VHF is not line of sight. You need international co-ordination. If you start breaching in one area, getting beneficial agreement in others becomes almost impossible. At the European level, CEPT co-ordinate RF comms - they write the syllabuses for and do co-ordination for marine, amateur, business radio, broadcast etc.

The USA is different, it only needs to co-ordinate with 2 near neighbours, UK needs to co-ordinate with many.

Even in Cornwall, we often get VHF leak-across from France, Europe...including French Coastguard.

...but then isn't Europe supposed to be effectively just the ONE near neighbour?

 

[st599]

Even in Cornwall, we often get VHF leak-across from France, Europe...including French Coastguard.

...but then isn't Europe supposed to be effectively just the ONE near neighbour?

No - at the ITU, each member state has its own representative. So each European country has an individual vote.

 

[ylop]

I sense it's the opposite way round. Government just don't GAF and would happy to have no licenses or a 5 minute online course and the RYA sidle up and say "You realize there's this thing that you should really be doing and training could be sold for, we are willing to do that as long as we can charge for it...".

i don’t think there’s much evidence for any country in the world not gradually having the creep of regulation, licensing and testing, especially in the face of accident investigations where inevitably competence will be an issue at least some of the time UNLESS someone is positively advocating that actually a voluntary education scheme can achieve more than a cobbled together online test. Keep in mind that the departments which do regulate us, very light touch, are the department who deal with highly qualified professional mariners. There must be people there who think WTF - any idiot can get a yacht and sail it in the path of a tanker; especially career civil servants who can imagine building a whole empire around having no a DVLA of the sea…

VHF licenses. Since mobile phones VHF etiquette has never been less important and policing has been zero throughout my lifetime. Ofcom are in control of installation licensing and it's free, online and takes no time. The RYA are in charge of personal licensing and guess what it requires a bloody course with a human trainer. If the RYA hadn't got involved I suspect we'd be like America with no exam or license at all.

You seem to have no understanding of the origins of the RYA course - it is mandated by international conventions so that British sailors can use their radio in foreign waters, British radios can transmit beyond geographic boundaries (eg into ROI, France, Belgium, etc) even if their vessels are in the UK. It’s also the same course professional mariners use (for short range) - nothing would be more infuriating than having to sit a second course because now you are operating the radio in a paid capacity. The RYA has tried hard to keep the entry barrier for that course as low as possible in spite of overseas complaints our course was too easy. If they were really being a quango or money making enterprise they would probably be pushing for Offcom to actually do some enforcement.

I've already done ICC's . Used to be needless and you could could just get a club officer to sign one off.

Again ICCs are issued under international agreements - if the rules got tighter it’s probably not because the RYA explicitly wanted it but because the countries who ask for ICC actually want consistency on the minimum standard.

Now there's a massive overhead for many people chartering abroad

A “massive overhead” seems a gross exaggeration for someone who is chartering at many thousands of pounds. Not all countries issue ICCs - the RYA could say, “we don’t want to encourage this restriction on liberty so we won’t do them”… that would mean an actual pita and cost for charter sailors as they would need to get certified in the country they are chartering in.

and something that needs to be done every five years when it could be done every 30 years or 50 years and likely would have never been needed if it wasn't already available.

I don’t think the RYA set the renewal period - but once you have one it’s a trivial paperwork exercise to renew it. You don’t need one if you are staying in UK waters (although even here it’s virtually impossible to charter without evidence of competence). Have you considered that the countries demanding an ICC are actually the countries where government or quangos actually control leisure sailing… take the RYA away and we could become Greece or France!

I don't think the cause and effect there is the way round people think it is.

Cruiser's want to be left alone. The RYA can't make money out of leaving people alone, far from minimising red tape and qualification expenditure the RYA have every interest in maximising it.

The RYA could easily increase its revenue by campaigning for licensing in the UK (and government would likely concede if the NGB was asking for it). Your assumption that the RYA wants to maximise revenue seems to completely misunderstand the role of a membership organisation.

I'm surprised the RYA didn't offer to manage dog licenses when they got phased out. A two day dog management course with yearly renewals, lovely jubbly .

I think that says more about your “anti-RYA” mantra than it does about the RYA’s “help” for cruising sailors.

 

[ylop]

If there's no requirement form Europe for us to enforce having licenses I can't see how there can be a requirement to have licenses at all. France is hardly saying to us "we insist you have a compulsory licenses, but we don't care if the people using VHFs have licenses."

However, if France feel strongly about VHF licences let's use it as leverage for border control. We stop any requirement for VHF licenses in our waters today, if France then prevents any migrant departures from its coast to the UK for 12 consecutive months, we reinstate the licensing requirement. (I make no comment on whether border control is a good thing, merely making the point that if France really care about compulsory UK VHF licenses then we have leverage if we want it.)

Of course exactly those conversations might be taking place - the consequences will be you get MORE regulation of uk boaters … is that what you want?

 

[ylop]

Weasel words, nothing in that forces the UK to require a VHF license for UK Vessels in UK waters it's a recommendation at best. And when you say it's not in the RYA's gift to have no exam that's Weasel words again. If the RYA weren't offering to manage it, would the UK government have set up a national training regime and examination body for something they don't enforce and don't care about? Or would they have gone down the USA/Dog License model. I know where my money is. The cart came before the horse. The RYA said they'd do the training/examining and the Government said, "Well if we don't have to do anything I suppose we can keep it."

I suspect if the RYA said we won’t do this anymore that either the DFT does it (fancy waiting 6 months like a driving test?) or they would put it out to tender and some commercial organisation would leap at the chance for far higher cost!