Rocna or Manson Supreme??

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
OTOH a polished surface will have better fatigue resistance than a rough one, and possibly than a galvanised one although I couldn't be certain about this.

[/ QUOTE ]
The evidence for polished vs rough is at a microscopic level -- i.e. 'polished'. By the time you have been lying to anchor for a night your surfaces, however polished initially, will be so far from smooth (microscopically) that this is not a factor.

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A hot dipped galvanised component would almost certainly be better in fatigue than an electroplated one.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see why, but maybe it is an accepted fact?

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It's a myth that stainless is more prone to fatigue.

[/ QUOTE ] Crevice corrosion results in deep pits in the surface that can encourage cracks, which can propagate.

 

[Anonymous]

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IMHO the loading on anchors can be very large and it would be the snatch loading that is the important one but difficult to determine.

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While I agree with the rest of your post, having watched chains underwater when diving, the forces are quite slow and progressive, almost majestic. I have never seen snatching -- though I have experienced it when retrieving the anchor.

[ QUOTE ]
Now to be shot down in flames

[/ QUOTE ]Not by me /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[vyv_cox]

Snatching occurs once the chain's catenary has been taken up, usually seems, according to the Alain Fraysse calculations, to be around wind speed force 6-7. Wave action is then transmitted directly to the anchor. Good argument for a snubber.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Snatching occurs once the chain's catenary has been taken up, usually seems, according to the Alain Fraysse calculations, to be around wind speed force 6-7. Wave action is then transmitted directly to the anchor. Good argument for a snubber.

[/ QUOTE ]I have read Alain's book but don't own a copy. I have a great deal of respect for him. However, it is impossible for a catenary to transmit an instantaneous force. The dynamics simply don't permit it. If wave action was to be transmitted directly to the anchor then the standing force would need to be infinite or the rode length zero. We need to define what we mean by 'snatch' before we can put any numbers into it.

 

[AncoraLatina]

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<span style="color:blue"> Dear Forum readers, it has come to our attention that Ancor Latina have posted a number of untrue comments about the Manson SUpreme Anchor on the YBW website as follows. </span>

[/ QUOTE ]

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Any anchor manufacturers care to comment? Yes, I do although it’s somewhat difficult to criticize the competition

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As I said before, I wish I wouldn’t be an anchor manufacturer, competitor of Manson, to have the possibility of talking freely about anchors.

- Yes Manson is a well reputable anchor manufacturer, with 35 years of experience of copying other anchor designs...

- Yes, the Supreme anchor is one of the best anchors available today...

Then I have to apologize if I did some mistakes:

[ QUOTE ]
The Supreme Blade is not rolled as I indicated. It is pressed,

[/ QUOTE ]
but this doesn’t change anything to my comments about the « cylindrical » shape: wrong design!

« laminated fluke » How can a laminated fluke be stronger?? and what will happen if sea water would penetrate between the two layers of the laminate?

Slotted shank – how can a slotted shank be stronger than a full solid shank?

I know at least one country where slotted shanks on anchors are PROHIBITED BY LAW (France) because it’s potentially dangerous, but I fully agree, users still have the possibility of not using the slot...

João

 

[Anonymous]

Alain?

 

[rogerthebodger]

[ QUOTE ]
Alain?

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking also

Having been sitting an my boat when the tail end of a cyclone came and hit us in Durban several years ago the snatch loading and the boats at anchor caused a lot damage to the boats, the anchors and chains I would no wish to skimp on my anchor setup.

The marina walkons also broke free with breaking of the anchor chains and the fixings to the pontoons mainly due to snatch loading

come and sail the south east coast of Africa when the south wester comes through against the current flowing from the north east and the very large waves you get.

Not conditions I would be diving in to check my anchor

I think we have different kind of sailing that the med /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Anonymous]

You have an entirely different situation between yachts at anchor and fixed moorings. Fixed moorings are short and will snatch. Yachts at anchor have anything from three to ten times maximum expected depth as rode. It is physically impossible to flatten a catenery of that sort. Of course, the force increases to very high values but, as I said in my previous post, until you define 'snatch' you cannot calculate the forces needed to produce it.

 

[Mansonanchors55]

Dear Forum readers, apologies but I can't let more untruths be posted, without trying to give readers and potential customers . As such

Again, Anchor Latina you are incorrect. France doesn’t prohibit shanks with slots in them from being sold. It isn't illegal, our partners in France sell and have sold thousands of Supremes. How are they unsafe?

Secondly, the slot is additional to the shank, the shank along without the slot has far more strength than is necessary per size due to the High tensile steel.

Thirdly, two pieces of steel laminated are stronger if there is space, ie, shape design is stronger than mere solid steel, it's why I beams and Box Sections exist.

Please again retract your misleading comments.

Thanks
Manson Anchors

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Reported!

cos I'm a snitch and you're out of order!

 

[ShipsWoofy]

[ QUOTE ]
Alain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Craig

 

[AncoraLatina]

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Again, Anchor Latina you are incorrect. France doesn’t prohibit shanks with slots

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Right, it WAS prohibited, by <span style="color:blue"> division 224 A 6 - arrêté du 23.11.1987, Ministére de l’Equipement</span> - but I didn’t know that this prohibition has been modified by a new « <span style="color:blue"> réglementation</span> » since 15 avril 2008

[ QUOTE ]
<span style="color:blue"> Thirdly, two pieces of steel laminated are stronger if there is space</span> ie, shape design is stronger than mere solid steel, it's why I beams and Box Sections exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully agree, but if I understand well... there is no space between the two layers, and the tip of the Supreme doesn’t have neither a "I" beam nor a "box" section !..

So, my comments where not misleading except that you have to replace slotted shank ARE prohibited, by slotted shank WAS prohibited... ( for safety reasons )

Just a question of syntax! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

João

 

[iaorana]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Snatching occurs once the chain's catenary has been taken up, usually seems, according to the Alain Fraysse calculations, to be around wind speed force 6-7. Wave action is then transmitted directly to the anchor. Good argument for a snubber.

[/ QUOTE ]I have read Alain's book but don't own a copy. I have a great deal of respect for him. However, it is impossible for a catenary to transmit an instantaneous force. The dynamics simply don't permit it. If wave action was to be transmitted directly to the anchor then the standing force would need to be infinite or the rode length zero. We need to define what we mean by 'snatch' before we can put any numbers into it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi All,

I am new here - for 7 years, I have kept thousand miles between me and yachting forums that could bombard me with anchoring questions 1/ because I was seldom able to connect to Internet during my trip from Europe to Polynesia 2/ because I was tired to explain the same things again and again /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Hope I won't regret this exception /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I never wrote a book about anchoring (or anything). Don't you confuse with another well know Alain /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ?

But yes, I am the author of a webpage on this subject:

http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/sail.htm

If you are brave enough to thoroughly read this page /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif and practice the various spreadsheets, you will notice I did include the elasticity of chain in the simulations - otherwise, as you pointed out, the tension would increase unrealistically (not to infinity, however, because whatever the force, there remains always a small catenary).

Anyway, this situation should only be academic: a wise sailor will always use some form of snubber, be it a textile rope, a spring or rubber device etc. It is so simple and effective (as shown by the simulations as well as experience) that I can't understand why some people don't /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Alain Fraysse

 

[iaorana]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, Anchor Latina you are incorrect. France doesn’t prohibit shanks with slots

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, it WAS prohibited, by <span style="color:blue"> division 224 A 6 - arrêté du 23.11.1987, Ministére de l’Equipement</span> - but I didn’t know that this prohibition has been modified by a new « <span style="color:blue"> réglementation</span> » since 15 avril 2008

[/ QUOTE ]
I can confirm it was prohibited in France in the 60's, following several accidents caused by such anchors. Now, the European regulations have loosen the rules, but I fear that, if you lose your boat while anchored with this feature "On", you'll still have problems with your insurance company... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Alain

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

To buy a new cqr is liable to be false economy in respect of all the info now available to us, unless you are determined to live in the age that the Twister was born.

Ive recently taken off my old 25lb cqr copy and I bought a 35lb cqr copy but didn't fit it.
I then started listening to the debate when Manson and Rocna were more on the scene, didn't use the 35lb'er (so a 25lb and 35lb cqr copy are each going cheap) and I've ordered a 10kg Rocna. Buyers collect! Portsmouth or South Oxfordshire.

 

[Anonymous]

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(so a 25lb and 35lb cqr copy are each going cheap).

[/ QUOTE ]Two anchors going cheap? Could suit someone on a tight budgie?

 

[bluedragon]

Is this thread still going!! Anway, I complained some weeks ago about the visual quality of the galvanising on my Manson Supreme vs. the pristine Delta I had before. Well...today I just happened to look at a genuine Delta in the local chandlers (made in China, rather than Brazil or wherever mine was made) and the coating looked dreadful!! Lumps and runs everywhere, and worst of all, a big lump of Zinc runoff right on the point. That ain't going to help it to dig in. So...it looks like they're all going to the dogs. Be warned...especially for mail order where you can't see what your're buying.

 

[MikeAmorgos850]

It depends what you mean by 'long-term' There is an incompatibility problem and the closer the dissimilar metals, the greater the problem. You are likely to lose zinc in the vicinity of a stainless component. However, when we discussed this in the forum in, I think, late 2007, there was little evidence that it was a serious problem for cruisers -- even liveaboard long-term cruisers -- who only anchor in the summer. At least one photo was shown that suggested that zinc might have been lost as a result of the stainless but it wasn't 100% conclusive.

In any case, stainless in the absence of oxygen corrodes quite fast and that can happen underwater. It tends to form in little nooks and crannies -- called 'crevices' hence 'crevice corrosion'. I have never (yet) experienced it personally but I have friends who have, and one friend has a little 'rogues gallery' museum of failed parts that gave way in service (or very nearly did). For this reason, some people won't use stainless for critical components either above or below the waterline.

For long-term moorings it is recommended that dipped-galvanised components are used, not stainless.

Read your Quote thanks for the info. I'm using an anchor swivel and it is a pain in the butt it does as our friend comments comes over the bow roller upside down then if you don't catch it quick enough it swivels and thumps the hull. will get rid of the SS Swivel and use something Galvanised maybe 2 heavy duty ring shackles

 

[SHUG]

Can someone please summarise the story so far.......I can't be bothered to read 10pages and 98posts on the subject. Has someone seen the light....if so lets have the summary. Thanks

 

[webcraft]

Can someone please summarise the story so far.......I can't be bothered to read 10pages and 98posts on the subject. Has someone seen the light....if so lets have the summary. Thanks

It has been conclusively proved that the anchor has nothing to do with it, it is all to do with having enough chain. Some sects however believe that the CQR is made in a talismanic form that was originally used by the Druids, while others say that Craig Smith was raised by wolves.

Me, I like to call a Spade a damn good anchor . . .

- W