Registration advice please

[Tranona]

Sure.
CE & UKCA Categories. A Brief Explanation for Boat Owners | Val Wyatt this one has intersting explanation
When is CE certification for sailboats required
The Recreational Craft Regulations 2017

Seems that if you build your own boat and dont sell it for 5 years it is also exempt

I saw that - but it only describes the 1998 CE rules. It does not say that pre 1998 boats are exempt from UKCA if imported. Home build exemption have always been there, but in reality largely irrelevant as so few people build their own boats, and many doing it seriously will comply with the RCD/UKCA and get the boat certified.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

You seem to have a better understanding than most over all this.

A question, rather than a challenge:
I have certainly been on classic boats that have UK registration (both Pt1 and SSR) including those built prior to WW2. One of which, I am certain, was inspected and registered post Brexit. That boat would have not complied with RCD, even had it been stripped to the last frame and started again. How would such an old vessel comply for registration if the OP's plastic thingy dose not?

Registration and compliance with import regulations are distinct and completely unrelated issues.

To be registered, a boat merely needs to comply with ownership requirements - for part 3 it must be owned by a person normally resident in the UK; for Part 1 it's more complicated, but basically the owner (be it a person or a company) has to be a UK entity, but does not have to be resident in the UK. I'm sure that there is a LOT more to Part 1 than that. But in both cases, you could register a bathtub provided you went through the proper formalities - seaworthiness, VAT and RCD and so on are quite irrelevant.

BUT if you, as a UK citizen, wish to bring a boat from overseas into the UK that counts as importing the boat and therefore becomes liable for VAT and must also comply with the RCD or equivalent standards as they are on the day of import - not the date when it was built. In 99 cases out of 100, the latter is impossible or VERY expensive, especially for older boats.

Other nations do link registration, VAT rules and RCD compliance, but the UK does not.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

BUT if you, as a UK citizen, wish to bring a boat from overseas into the UK that counts as importing the boat...

'Resident' is a better description than citizen as that's what counts, not what passport held. The import rules would apply to a French citizen (i.e. passport holder) who was living and tax resident in the UK.

 

[Alicatt]

'Resident' is a better description than citizen as that's what counts, not what passport held. The import rules would apply to a French citizen (i.e. passport holder) who was living and tax resident in the UK.

I'm a UK citizen with UK passport, I am also a resident in Belgium therefore resident within the EU, I have a EU (Belgium) registered boat, I could take it to the UK on a temporary basis and have to bring it back out of the UK waters within 18 months.
If I bought a UK boat and tried to take it back to the EU I would have to get it through the RCDII compliance and then pay the taxes on it.

My wife and I were interested in a couple of UK boats but on closer examination of the regulations we gave up on the idea and bought in the EU, what we bought here is not quite up to what we would have bought in the UK, as where we are it is four days cruising to get to the open sea so a river boat is good enough for the moment

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I'm a UK citizen with UK passport, I am also a resident in Belgium therefore resident within the EU, I have a EU (Belgium) registered boat, I could take it to the UK on a temporary basis and have to bring it back out of the UK waters within 18 months.

... and presumably your boat is EU VAT paid as well. Your example demonstrates well that it's not your passport, citizenship or nationality that counts, it's where you are resident that matters.

 

[Alicatt]

... and presumably your boat is EU VAT paid as well. Your example demonstrates well that it's not your passport, citizenship or nationality that counts, it's where you are resident that matters.

No idea on the VAT status, not even sure where the boat was actually built, suspect the UK but not sure, it is from 1980, all I have is the bill of sale from the previous owner and a confirmation of the transfer of the title from the Belgian Dept. of Transport (FOD Mobiliteit: Front | mobility )

 

[doug748]

......and must also comply with the RCD or equivalent standards as they are on the day of import - not the date when it was built. In 99 cases out of 100, the latter is impossible or VERY expensive, especially for older boats.

Have you got a link to the legislation or anything definitive ? I have tried but not got very far. Thanks.

 

[Tranona]

Have you got a link to the legislation or anything definitive ? I have tried but not got very far. Thanks.

The link in post#19 gives the basics. The UKCA is currently the same as the 2013 RCD and boats with evidence of that certification are a straightforward paperwork exercise. Boats with 1998-2013 certification need an assessment and boats prior to that (which were exempt if they were built in the EEA when we were in the EU) require a post construction assessment. Essentially such boats would not meet RCD/EEA either because of the design and construction or lack of technical data on stability for example. This is a sort of re-run of 1998 when the RCD came in and killed the import of secondhand US boats which could not meet the RCD standard. What is unclear to both the interested observer and the certifying bodies is whether this removal of the exemption is actually being applied. This may very well be because the implementation of UKCA has been delayed several times except for new boats where a paperwork exercise has converted the CE mark direct to UKCA and probably because few people have tried to import old boats from the EU as the requirement to pay VAT in many cases makes it uneconomic.

You are not alone in being unable to find any clarity - the published material both in the press, from bodies such as the BMF and RYA and the certifying bodies is also unclear on anything other than new boats. Given that much of the implementation of UK unique standards has been abandoned in favour of sticking with the EU CE regime, I suspect that our lords and masters are also not clear as importing old boats is probably at best in their pending tray in their work from home studies.

 

[Poignard]

Just to get this clear in my mind, as I am thinking of selling my boat.

My boat was built in the UK in 1967, ie before RCD came into existence.

She has never had a CE or CA.

I bought her in 1997.

I reside in the UK.

My boat was sailed to France by me 2014.

She has remained in France since 2014, and has not been back to the UK since.

She is in France now.

Three scenarios:

a) I bring her back to the UK, and then sell her to another UK resident, who intends to keep her in the UK.​

​

b) I sell her to another UK resident, who takes delivery of her in France, but then sails her back to the UK, where he intends to keep her..​

​

c) I sell her to an EU citizen, resident in the EU, who intends to keep her in the EU.​

Questions:

1) In which of these scenarios, if any, would she have to be certified?​

​

2) And what certificate would she have to have?​

​

3) How would I go about getting this certificate?​

4) If she did have to be certified, would it be realistically worth the trouble and expense? (Given that her current sale value, uncertified, is probably well under £10,000.)​

​

I am beginning to get a sick feeling that I am going to end up owning a boat I can't sell!

​

 

[14K478]

Pre-RCD, no problem, I believe.

 

[Poignard]

Pre-RCD, no problem, I believe.

Any chance of something authoritative to confirm your belief, please? Something I can show to a prospective buyer?

 

[westernman]

The following is my understanding of the situation. I am not a qualified expert in this domain:-

a) You are bringing your own boat back to the UK. I believe this does not count as importing. Once back int the UK you can sell it to some one else resident in the UK with no RCD or VAT issues.

b) The guy who guys your boat is screwed. He has to pay the VAT on the sale price. He will have to get the boat certified to RCD-II which is probably not viable.

c) The boat is already legally present and considered VAT paid in the EU. It is not being imported. Therefore no VAT and no RCD issues.

1) In scenario (b)

2) RCD-II (i.e. the latest and greatest version)

3) Not your problem. But a serious (insurmountable?) problem for the guy who buys your boat in scenario b.

4) Almost certainly not worth doing

 

[Alicatt]

Just to get this clear in my mind, as I am thinking of selling my boat.



Three scenarios:

a) I bring her back to the UK, and then sell her to another UK resident, who intends to keep her in the UK.​

​

b) I sell her to another UK resident, who takes delivery of her in France, but then sails her back to the UK, where he intends to keep her..​

​

c) I sell her to an EU citizen, resident in the EU, who intends to keep her in the EU.​

I am beginning to get a sick feeling that I am going to end up owning a boat I can't sell!

​

Won't that incur a VAT event even though the boat is pre VAT?

 

[westernman]

Won't that incur a VAT event even though the boat is pre VAT?

Yes. And also requires RCD-II certification before being used.
(Is this ever checked????)

 

[Tranona]

Post#72 is a good summary. However if you sell in the EU as you can legally under EU VAT and certification rules you may find some buyers reluctant because of local state requirements. For example in Spain and Portugal local registration and categorisation is based on the CE categories so citizens of those states may have difficulty in registering the boat.

If I were in your position I would try and sell it locally and see what happens. You may find an enthusiast who is unconcerned about any difficulty or of selling it on at a later date. If that does not work then sensible to sail it back to UK and sell it here - although you may find the cost of doing so and paying storage until it sells seriously reduces your net proceeds. However knowing it goes to a good home and is no longer your responsibility may be sufficient compensation. Otherwise sail it up to Lerwick for next years ritual boat burning (only joking).

 

[doug748]

The following is my understanding of the situation. I am not a qualified expert in this domain:-

a) You are bringing your own boat back to the UK. I believe this does not count as importing. Once back int the UK you can sell it to some one else resident in the UK with no RCD or VAT issues.

b) The guy who guys your boat is screwed. He has to pay the VAT on the sale price. He will have to get the boat certified to RCD-II which is probably not viable.

c) The boat is already legally present and considered VAT paid in the EU. It is not being imported. Therefore no VAT and no RCD issues.

1) In scenario (b)

2) RCD-II (i.e. the latest and greatest version)

3) Not your problem. But a serious (insurmountable?) problem for the guy who buys your boat in scenario b.

4) Almost certainly not worth doing

Though there seems to be no proven mechanism for identifying the RCD shortcomings of an imported boat under (b). Nor any precedents nor any actual evidence as to what would happen in the case of importing an old boat.

My guess is it would fall into a sort of limbo, after the VAT was extracted. Nobody officially interested, nobody willing to give the boat absolution.

Poignard should be our pathfinder here.

.

 

[Tranona]

Though there seems to be no proven mechanism for identifying the RCD shortcomings of an imported boat under (b). Nor any precedents nor any actual evidence as to what would happen in the case of importing an old boat.

My guess is it would fall into a sort of limbo, after the VAT was extracted. Nobody officially interested, nobody willing to give the boat absolution.

Poignard should be our pathfinder here.

.

Don't think it is quite as vague as that. My understanding is that HMRC will advise the importer on the need for (re)certification at the point that VAT (and duty if applicable) is paid. This follows a recommendation from an MAIB report a few years ago after a fatal accident involving a used boat imported from the US where the importer had not had a post construction assessment before using the boat. While not the prime cause of the accident the lack of assessment in terms of categorisation (the boat would have been CatC to the then current regs rather than CatB under the previous regs it was built to) and the use of non CE equipment such as VHF and buoyancy aids and fitment of grab handles may have had an effect on the outcomes.

There have been a number of articles in the yachty press, most notably in YM by St Tom covering the certification and post construction assessment process when importing boats privately. According to his experience when importing his boat (a Mason 43) from the US he determined what would be required before buying the boat - most notably whether the engine complied, which it did being a relatively new Yanmar then obtaining the design details from the builder and agreeing what else was needed and the timeframe to carry out the work.

Of course the system is designed around commercial importers and enforced by Trading Standards. Private imports are probably very small in number and TS probably don't have the resources or expertise to operate an effective monitoring system, particularly now given the confusing situation on standards.

Don't think Poignard will be a pathfinder here as if he brings the boat back to sell it will be under RGR and therefore not subject to VAT or certification. If a UK resident bought the boat for use in the UK the sensible thing would be for Poignard to bring the boat back and complete the sale in the UK so avoiding scenario b. If it was sold in the EU no certification would be required by the EU, although as I suggested the new owner may have issues with state registration (there have been a number of threads on here from people in Spain and Portugal having difficulty in registering old British boats because of a lack of a CE mark).

 

[Poignard]

Thanks for the very helpful replies so far.

Any more thoughts are welcome.

 

[doug748]

We live in hope that Poignard will sell to someone who brings the boat to the UK or that if the topic comes up often enough we will get some feedback from one who has done it, or somebody who has risked a trip to the UK in their EU based, vat paid boat.
Or even more unlikely that someone " whose hands lie on the levers of power " will explain what lies behind this odd situation.

My guess is it is just a bit of left over EU protectionism, as the UK has little in this line to protect

.

 

[Tranona]

My guess is it is just a bit of left over EU protectionism, as the UK has little in this line to protect

.

Not so sure that it is protectionism in the normal sense - that is a conscious decision to erect barriers to entry, but an example of what is widely believed as a reluctance amongst both politicians and officials to change anything that was carried over from the EU. It is in their power to do away with this nonsense but do not choose to exercise that power. There was a promise of a "bonfire" of unnecessary regulation such as this and 4 years later very little has happened - although to be fair lobbying did get the equally nonsensical 3 year limit for RGR removed. However, given that rule had a "normally" in it all that really happened was the normally was removed and nothing of substance changed.