Registration advice please

[KompetentKrew]

Thanks .. so what’s the process for us to buy a boat from the Netherlands and sail it back to the UK and ideally register in UK ? it’s 1978 so it seems it needs to be CE ? or similar .. we are new to this and assumed it would be simple ..

Thanks for the input

I'm afraid my experience won't be much help to you, as the UK was still in the EU when I bought my boat.

I just casually sailed it home and then arranged my part 1 survey once back in Gosport. I guess this is mostly legal as I think the UK doesn't actually require registration for boats belonging to its citizens in its waters.

I then sailed back out of UK waters and the Brexit withdrawal happened after that, so I need to avoid importing again myself.

I agree with the other replies that you'll probably wish to avoid importing a boat to UK now.

I intended my comment to illustrate that there's no incompatibility with having an EU-based boat on the Part 1 register.

Before Brexit, there was a single VAT covering the whole EU area - now we have 2 VAT's, UK separate from the rest of the EU, and you can incur a VAT liability by importing from one to the other. But if you buy a boat VAT-paid in Netherlands then it remains VAT paid as long as you keep it in EU. Assuming you wish to do that then the VAT paid document may be useful for showing to police in the eastern mediterranean - I've heard they like to do spot checks over it there, although I don't know truly how common this is.

 

[Jezleeuk]

I'm afraid my experience won't be much help to you, as the UK was still in the EU when I bought my boat.

I just casually sailed it home and then arranged my part 1 survey once back in Gosport. I guess this is mostly legal as I think the UK doesn't actually require registration for boats belonging to its citizens in its waters.

I then sailed back out of UK waters and the Brexit withdrawal happened after that, so I need to avoid importing again myself.

I agree with the other replies that you'll probably wish to avoid importing a boat to UK now.

I intended my comment to illustrate that there's no incompatibility with having an EU-based boat on the Part 1 register.

Before Brexit, there was a single VAT covering the whole EU area - now we have 2 VAT's, UK separate from the rest of the EU, and you can incur a VAT liability by importing from one to the other. But if you buy a boat VAT-paid in Netherlands then it remains VAT paid as long as you keep it in EU. Assuming you wish to do that then the VAT paid document may be useful for showing to police in the eastern mediterranean - I've heard they like to do spot checks over it there, although I don't know truly how common this is.

Thanks , appreciate the input..

 

[oldgit]

A rare picture of a motor boat in "Only Sail Boats Matter " the organ of the RYA.


TBC ?
Suprised they have room in the envelope with all the ads for whine and health insurance.
Not too sure about the wash created by that tent boat as well, bet the nearbye moored boats just love him.

 

[14K478]

The RYA may propose… but the British Government are short of money.

 

[RupertW]

There is no such thing as an "unflagged" vessel. Any vessel has a nationality and in the absence of any other evidence (such as a Certificate of Registration) this will be assumed to be the nationality of the owner.

Not convinced. I’ve delivered an unregistered, unflagged and even unnamed boat from France to Florida. At no point did anyone sugeest it must be Cayman Island flagged because the owning company was based there.

 

[14K478]

Not convinced. I’ve delivered an unregistered, unflagged and even unnamed boat from France to Florida. At no point did anyone suggest it must be Cayman Island flagged because the owning company was based there.

You are missing the point. The boat had a nationality, and if it was owned by a Cayman Islands corporation that was its nationality. Whether the people you dealt with on your interesting voyage chose to notice is another question.

 

[RupertW]

You are missing the point. The boat had a nationality, and if it was owned by a Cayman Islands corporation that was its nationality. Whether the people you dealt with on your interesting voyage chose to notice is another question.

You keep asserting that ownership equals flag if the boat is unregistered - you may well be right but what law are you basing this strong belief on?

 

[Tranona]

You keep asserting that ownership equals flag if the boat is unregistered - you may well be right but what law are you basing this strong belief on?

See post#15. Connection between flag state, that is nationality of ship and ownership is one of the underlying assumptions of international maritime law, but it is not uncontested nor universally accepted because of the difficulty of connecting the holder of title (in this case a Cayman Islands corporation, maybe) and the beneficial owner (and his/her nationality). Hence the importance of registering the boat which gives it a distinct "nationality" which governs the way that it is equipped and operated.

A current example of the of the difficulty in connecting a boat and nationality of the owner is attempts at seizing Russian owned yachts where the owner is sanctioned. Registration removes that link by registering title in the name of another entity such as an overseas corporation.

 

[Jezleeuk]

I have just been told it’s easy to register and flag an EU 1978 boat in the Cayman Islands and when the boat is visiting the UK for any period of time VAT and duty do not need to be paid ?

Can anyone help with this ?

Thanks as always

 

[Tranona]

I have just been told it’s easy to register and flag an EU 1978 boat in the Cayman Islands and when the boat is visiting the UK for any period of time VAT and duty do not need to be paid ?

Can anyone help with this ?

Thanks as always

No. Whoever told you that is wrong. Registration is irrelevant to liability for VAT. Read the links I posted earlier carefully. If you are a UK resident and you import a boat from outside the UK you have to pay VAT on arrival.

There is no such thing as an "EU" boat. What you are buying is a boat that is considered to be EU VAT paid which allows it to circulate freely around the EU without further VAT payment. Once it leaves the EU it potentially loses that status. If you were an EU resident you would be allowed to bring the boat into the UK on a temporary basis in just the same way as UK residents can take their boats into the EU for visits without paying VAT.

VAT is a tax on transactions, not on boats and as a UK resident importing a boat is considered a "chargeable event" for VAT purposes and you are liable to pay it.

I think you have to accept there is no way of doing what you want to do. That's life.

 

[KompetentKrew]

I have just been told it’s easy to register and flag an EU 1978 boat in the Cayman Islands and when the boat is visiting the UK for any period of time VAT and duty do not need to be paid ?

If you're a UK citizen then why wouldn't you flag under one the UK registries? SSR is relatively easy, you have to use Part 1 if you're not resident though.

VAT is payable on import, and the flag is irrelevant. If you're UK resident then I believe you're deemed to have imported the boat as soon as you bring it into the country.

 

[14K478]

No. Whoever told you that is wrong. Registration is irrelevant to liability for VAT. Read the links I posted earlier carefully. If you are a UK resident and you import a boat from outside the UK you have to pay VAT on arrival.

There is no such thing as an "EU" boat. What you are buying is a boat that is considered to be EU VAT paid which allows it to circulate freely around the EU without further VAT payment. Once it leaves the EU it potentially loses that status. If you were an EU resident you would be allowed to bring the boat into the UK on a temporary basis in just the same way as UK residents can take their boats into the EU for visits without paying VAT.

VAT is a tax on transactions, not on boats and as a UK resident importing a boat is considered a "chargeable event" for VAT purposes and you are liable to pay it.

I think you have to accept there is no way of doing what you want to do. That's life.

This time, I agree entirely with Tranona!

 

[Jezleeuk]

If you're a UK citizen then why wouldn't you flag under one the UK registries? SSR is relatively easy, you have to use Part 1 if you're not resident though.

VAT is payable on import, and the flag is irrelevant. If you're UK resident then I believe you're deemed to have imported the boat as soon as you bring it into the country.

Apparently since Brexit and as the boat is 1978 it would be virtually impossible to get Certification in the UK .. it’s spent it’s whole life in the EU .. hence registering it elsewhere maybe our only option .. but sadly this seems impossible as well ..

 

[14K478]

Apparently since Brexit and as the boat is 1978 it would be virtually impossible to get Certification in the UK .. it’s spent it’s whole life in the EU .. hence registering it elsewhere maybe our only option .. but sadly this seems impossible as well ..

Hang on... where does certification come in?

If the boat is a one off, then the one off rules appply. If she is a mass produced boat then its almost inconceivable that no other boat to the same design was imported into the UK between 1978 amd 2016

 

[Jezleeuk]

Hang on... where does certification come in?

If the boat is a one off, then the one off rules appply. If she is a mass produced boat then its almost inconceivable that no other boat to the same design was imported into the UK between 1978 amd 2016

It’s only a Formosa 51 from the EU .. but I’m told it won’t meet the UK registrations requirements..

 

[westernman]

Hang on... where does certification come in?

If the boat is a one off, then the one off rules appply. If she is a mass produced boat then its almost inconceivable that no other boat to the same design was imported into the UK between 1978 amd 2016

An EU made boat from 1978 will have met the UK requirements in 1978 for importation to the UK.

However, we are now in 2023 and it will have to meet the 2023 requirements which are much more stringent than the 1978 requirements.

 

[14K478]

It’s only a Formosa 51 from the EU .. but I’m told it won’t meet the UK registrations requirements..

I'm surprised - it's a pretty common Bill Garden design - loads were built. I've sailed one myself. I recognise that these "very American" boats are not common in the UK but I'd be amazed if not a single one was imported. They do pop up under other names, as I'm sure you know.

 

[westernman]

I'm surprised - it's a pretty common Bill Garden design - loads were built. I've sailed one myself. I recognise that these "very American" boats are not common in the UK but I'd be amazed if not a single one was imported. They do pop up under other names, as I'm sure you know.

No problem to import them back in the day.
Now we have RCD II from 2013.

Almost nothing built in the last century will meet the requirements for RCD II certification without a least some hassle. Often with a lot of hassle including replacing the engine because it does not meet the new emissions requirements.

When importing a boat, it has to meet the current requirements. It does not matter that there are hundreds of exactly the same model which were built at the same time which were imported during the last century. It does not matter that it is OK to keep it in the EU (if that is where it is) or in the UK (if that is where it is) even though it does not meet the current requirements. It met the requirements when it was imported (or first put on the market in the UK/EU).

It is the importation of old boats from the EU to the UK or vice versa which is now to all intents and purposes no longer possible.

 

[Jezleeuk]

I'm surprised - it's a pretty common Bill Garden design - loads were built. I've sailed one myself. I recognise that these "very American" boats are not common in the UK but I'd be amazed if not a single one was imported. They do pop up under other names, as I'm sure you know.

A few around in the UK , Vagabonds and Hunter Force 50 etc .. but all been here long before Brexit when things changed ..

No problem to import them back in the day.
Now we have RCD II from 2013.

Almost nothing built in the last century will meet the requirements for RCD II certification without a least some hassle. Often with a lot of hassle including replacing the engine because it does not meet the new emissions requirements.

When importing a boat, it has to meet the current requirements. It does not matter that there are hundreds of exactly the same model which were built at the same time which were imported during the last century. It does not matter that it is OK to keep it in the EU (if that is where it is) or in the UK (if that is where it is) even though it does not meet the current requirements. It met the requirements when it was imported (or first put on the market in the UK/EU).

It is the importation of old boats from the EU to the UK or vice versa which is now to all intents and purposes no longer possible.

thanks again for the input .. really appreciated

 

[14K478]

No problem to import them back in the day.
Now we have RCD II from 2013.

Almost nothing built in the last century will meet the requirements for RCD II certification without a least some hassle. Often with a lot of hassle including replacing the engine because it does not meet the new emissions requirements.

When importing a boat, it has to meet the current requirements. It does not matter that there are hundreds of exactly the same model which were built at the same time which were imported during the last century. It does not matter that it is OK to keep it in the EU (if that is where it is) or in the UK (if that is where it is) even though it does not meet the current requirements. It met the requirements when it was imported (or first put on the market in the UK/EU).

It is the importation of old boats from the EU to the UK or vice versa which is now to all intents and purposes no longer possible.

For this we may thank the now almost extinct British boatbuilding businesses, who in their desperate attempt to stay in business created and lobbied for most of these Rules.