Red diesel problems in Belgium again it seems

[NormanS]

Belgium has a coastline of what, 50 miles or so? Seems to me to be an easily avoided problem.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So Belgians are applying THEIR law - not the EU.

Oh right, so Brexit was a vote against national sovereignty, was it? Or only for foreigners.

Suspect the UK case is firmly in the pending tray as its relevance may soon go away.

Perhaps. A loophole which allows any yacht which has visited Britain to explain away red diesel in its tanks may not be wholly welcomed. Perhaps we could change the colour of our untaxed fuel - wasn't it green in Ireland at one time, and blue for inland waterways use?

 

[JumbleDuck]

No, but maybe because when some other EU countries choose to ignore or implement their own version of an EU directive that suits them, it seems OK, but when we do it........

Yes, that's the "argument". One reasons with Brexiters in much the same way as one reasons with two year olds - smile brightly, give them a rusk, mop up the dribble and move on to something more intellectually rewarding, like cutting one's toenails.

 

[LittleSister]

Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017

There is also an international law that allows the purchase on red deisel outside the EU.

Careful there! That's dangerous talk!

 

[CLB]

Ooh, I love rusks. Where do I collect mine?

 

[Tranona]

Oh right, so Brexit was a vote against national sovereignty, was it? Or only for foreigners.



Perhaps. A loophole which allows any yacht which has visited Britain to explain away red diesel in its tanks may not be wholly welcomed. Perhaps we could change the colour of our untaxed fuel - wasn't it green in Ireland at one time, and blue for inland waterways use?

Nothing at all to do with Brexit. Just an observation about the inconsistency of application of Directives when written into state law. This is only one of many disputes across the EU where either party (state or EU or state vs another state) where there are valid arguments from both sides which are resolved in court. This is the process being followed (very slowly!).

The two sides disagree over the intention of the directive, with the UK saying it is fiscal - that is there is no financial advantage given to leisure craft, whereas the Belgians believe it is an issue of marking - therefore it is the presence of the die that creates the offence.

The Belgian supply environment is entirely different from the UK (and Ireland) so the withdrawal of supply of red diesel for boats has zero effect on them, but a major impact in our islands (and particularly the part where you live). A small example of the difficulty of having one policy for a diverse bunch of nations.

 

[Heckler]

Yes, that's the "argument". One reasons with Brexiters in much the same way as one reasons with two year olds - smile brightly, give them a rusk, mop up the dribble and move on to something more intellectually rewarding, like cutting one's toenails.

Winners and losers in life, no prizes for guessing what you are! When I lose I move on, remoaners just hurl insults! Ah well takes all sorts!
Stu

 

[JumbleDuck]

When I lose I move on ...

With Brexit we all lose, not just those who run away to Spain.

 

[Pye_End]

This crazy situation is because bureaucrats and politicians have had an inability over years to sort this out, and the fallout lands on the boat owner. If it were the politicians and bureaucrats who ended up with the bills it would have been sorted a long time ago. Belgium has no right to fine boats - all we are doing is filling up on diesel from our marinas and going sailing - isn't crossing borders with no constraints one of the founding features of the EU? How is it at all our fault? Not surprised issues like this encourage a Brexiteer vote.

 

[RichardS]

A small example of the difficulty of having one policy for a diverse bunch of nations.

Therein lies the entire problem with the EU in a nutshell.

The first time I voted "Out" I was a lone voice in the wilderness. The second time I voted "Out" the majority of the UK joined me.

We got there in the end. :encouragement:

Richard

 

[JumbleDuck]

Belgium has no right to fine boats - all we are doing is filling up on diesel from our marinas and going sailing - isn't crossing borders with no constraints one of the founding features of the EU? -

Try buying some perfectly legal marijuana in the Netherlands and bringing it back to the UK in your boat.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Therein lies the entire problem with the EU in a nutshell.

So the problem you see is that Belgium and the UK have different policies, and you think the EU should have done more to enforce the same rules across all member states?

 

[RichardS]

So the problem you see is that Belgium and the UK have different policies, and you think the EU should have done more to enforce the same rules across all member states?

You need to gen up on how the forum quoting system works JD.

I vouchsafed that the problem with the EU lies in Tranona's observation about "the difficulty of having one policy for a diverse bunch of nations".

Forget "the same rules" ..... think "far fewer rules".

Richard

 

[Tranona]

This crazy situation is because bureaucrats and politicians have had an inability over years to sort this out, and the fallout lands on the boat owner. If it were the politicians and bureaucrats who ended up with the bills it would have been sorted a long time ago. Belgium has no right to fine boats - all we are doing is filling up on diesel from our marinas and going sailing - isn't crossing borders with no constraints one of the founding features of the EU? How is it at all our fault? Not surprised issues like this encourage a Brexiteer vote.

I am afraid they do have the right. If you are in their territory you have to obey their laws. The irony is that many other states (such as France, Holland and Germany) have written their law in the same way, but choose not to enforce it on visitors from the UK, partly because it is still in dispute, and partly because it is so trivial that they don't waste resources on it. However, Belgium is a country that has an almost non existent political government so is in the hands of unelected civil servants who believe only the "rules" matter. A microcosm of the EU problem.

 

[JumbleDuck]

However, Belgium is a country that has an almost non existent political government so is in the hands of unelected civil servants who believe only the "rules" matter. A microcosm of the EU problem.

So now the EU problem is that countries can have their own laws and choose whether or not to enforce EU directives?

 

[Pye_End]

I am afraid they do have the right. .

Whilst I do not dispute their legal rights, you misunderstand my post. The situation is contrary to the principals of free movement, and the oddity is there because the EU, Belgium and UK haven't sorted it out - those 'in charge' have sat on their laurels, and we end up paying the price.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Whilst I do not dispute their legal rights, you misunderstand my post. The situation is contrary to the principals of free movement ...

We're all - for the moment - perfectly free to move to Belgium, but we can't take anything we want with us. And of course the same goes the other way round; try entering the UK with pot bought legally in Amsterdam, a gun bought legally in Brussels or a locking blade knife bought legally in Paris.

 

[Pye_End]

We're all - for the moment - perfectly free to move to Belgium, but we can't take anything we want with us. And of course the same goes the other way round; try entering the UK with pot bought legally in Amsterdam, a gun bought legally in Brussels or a locking blade knife bought legally in Paris.

That may well be, but:

The free movement of goods, the first of the four fundamental freedoms of the internal market, is secured through the elimination of customs duties and quantitative restrictions, and the prohibition of measures having an equivalent effect. The principles of mutual recognition, elimination of physical and technical barriers, and promotion of standardisation were added in order to continue the completion of the internal market.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_3.1.2.html

Whilst I can understand problems in the areas you highlight, these are very different in nature to fuel.

 

[Tranona]

So now the EU problem is that countries can have their own laws and choose whether or not to enforce EU directives?

No. You are just making things up. just read what I wrote and you will realise your interpretation is simply wrong.

 

[Tranona]

That may well be, but:

The free movement of goods, the first of the four fundamental freedoms of the internal market, is secured through the elimination of customs duties and quantitative restrictions, and the prohibition of measures having an equivalent effect. The principles of mutual recognition, elimination of physical and technical barriers, and promotion of standardisation were added in order to continue the completion of the internal market.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_3.1.2.html

Whilst I can understand problems in the areas you highlight, these are very different in nature to fuel.

That is the intention. All I am doing is highlighting how difficult it is to ensure that Directives are turned into law in exactly the same way in 28 different states. The Franco German solution, supported by the bureaucrats is more integration and the replacement of 28 law making bodies with one. That is what federalism is about, and what the UK will hopefully avoid when it leaves the EU.

The red diesel problem is quite different from JD's observations where he is highlighting the fact that there is still a fair amount of law that is not covered by the EU so individual states have their own laws in some areas that are very different from other states. We also have that in the UK, for example over same sex marriage and abortion.

We have the odd situation that Westminster is on the one hand fighting federalism in Europe and devolution in the UK!