Red diesel problems in Belgium again it seems

[JumbleDuck]

Re: again it seems...audiens cave ?

Does nobody on these forums ever wait for the actual facts to emerge and to find out the actual circumstances of the event ...

And where would the fun be in that?

 

[Niander]

yeah think its about 69p per L from a local garage for red they don't even bother asking what it's for or any sig required.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It amazes me that people use white when red is so much cheaper?

How much fuel do you use in an average year? I use a measly 20 - 100 litres, correctly declaring 100% propulsion, so the cost difference to me is trivial.

 

[JumbleDuck]

yeah think its about 69p per L from a local garage for red they don't even bother asking what it's for or any sig required.

The only garage I have ever seen selling red diesel is the one just outside Wooler in Northumberland, which for as long as I can remember has had a pump for "Gazole". It's interesting to hear of at least one other one.

 

[awol]

How much fuel do you use in an average year? I use a measly 20 - 100 litres, correctly declaring 100% propulsion, so the cost difference to me is trivial.

Wow, that is some efficiency! Somewhere about 80% of fuel energy fails to reach the prop and that isn't loss free. Your generosity to the tax take should be lauded.

 

[thalassa]

Just as a matter of interest but what do Belgium registered yachts and motor boats do when they need to refuel in British marinas with red diesel?

My fuel tank is 50 liters. I take an extra canister of 20 liters as a buffer, and two 10-liter ones to get fuel at service stations near marinas. Until five years ago, we did the South Coast regularly ( Belgium to Devon). However, since then, we limit the trip to Brighton in the West and the Deben in the East. I can get canisters at ASDA there, as well as in Eastbourne and Dover. Ramsgate has white diesel in the marina pontoon. Ipswich has a service station near Fox's marina. So, overall, visits have been halved in duration. After all, Dover is not that attractive to spend more days than necessary. Belgian friends who go further always have a bigger tank. All in all, it makes you healthier as several walks are needed to fill up...

 

[sailorman]

How much fuel do you use in an average year? I use a measly 20 - 100 litres, correctly declaring 100% propulsion, so the cost difference to me is trivial.

BUT the issue isnt price it ,is "marked" diesel that is the problem. we in this country do not conform to the EU requirement, our government went for the 60/40 fudge & thai is the problem.
so marked diesel + rebated fuel

 

[Tranona]

Well, there was also your complaint about "unelected bureaucrats", which is a standard and odd one, because being unelected is more or less the definition of being a bureaucrat. When did you last vote for the Poole harbourmaster, or for the junior clerk in DWP who processes your pension?

Or is it different when they're foreign?

It is not necessarily the enforcement that is the problem, it is the directives that are produced by bureaucrats rather than elected politicians. Turning them into law in the individual states which have different legal systems and law making processes results in inconsistent application, not only between states but within individual states.

You only have to look at the way VAT on boats is applied in different states to see this. There is a thread on MOBO at the moment suggesting that italy is about to create a new definition of "offshore" usage which will result in making it easier to avoid VAT on- guess what- big MOBOs.

Not suggesting for one minute that the UK system of lawmaking and enforcement is perfect, as our own interpretation of VAT shows, just pointing out the difficulties of trying to have consistent law across such a large number of notionally independent states. And certainly nothing to do with Belgium (or any other country) being "foreign". However you miss the point about where accountability lies. Normally statutory bodies such as PHC do not make policy, but the observation about the EU is that they do. In other words the source of EU law comes from an unelected body. That is at the heart of Brexit.

 

[Heckler]

The only garage I have ever seen selling red diesel is the one just outside Wooler in Northumberland, which for as long as I can remember has had a pump for "Gazole". It's interesting to hear of at least one other one.

There are two near Llangollen, they also sell heating oil from one of the pumps. No questions, fill yer boots!
Stu

 

[Tranona]

Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?



"Federalism" means the same as "devolution".

It would be a good thing if the aim of the EU was to foster diversity, but as it seems to be in pursuit of commonality it has to be a bad thing.

No they are coming from the opposite direction. Devolution in the UK context is devolving more power to the elected assemblies in 3 of the constituent parts. We can see already major differences in both policy and law in at least two of the devolved entities and a desire for even more.

On the other hand in Europe it is the declared objective of both the major members (particularly Germany and France) as well as the unelected Commission for greater centralisation and commonality. There is nothing new about this - it was there when the Common Market was established, and became inevitable in 1992. So our choice is (or was) to go with it or opt out.

 

[thalassa]

Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017

Someone asked why the skipper's attitude was called into question. It's valid because many of us ply in and out of Oostende / Nieuwport; sometimes being boarded but never falling foul of the red diesel rules. Given that, it's reasonable to ask whether there were any other circumstances / factors in this instance.
This is the first clear instance of a Brit being actually fined. Academic for us this summer as we've gone French but later in the year I'd have liked a weekend in Oostende.

As I've posted this here a year ago, the boat next to me at Dunkirk was a yacht based on the Orwell. He had been asked for his ship's papers at Nieuwpoort. He had no valid paperwork with him and no passport. So they threw the book at him, the red diesel as well as not having the ship's name on the transom. This was genuine, he showed me the paperwork.

 

[sailorman]

Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017

As I've posted this here a year ago, the boat next to me at Dunkirk was a yacht based on the Orwell. He had been asked for his ship's papers at Nieuwpoort. He had no valid paperwork with him and no passport. So they threw the book at him, the red diesel as well as not having the ship's name on the transom. This was genuine, he showed me the paperwork.

so no different from the plod pulling you over, then looks at your tyres ect.
when this was posted b4 there was no mention of no papers ect, just a fine for marked fuel

 

[Pye_End]

Free movement of goods only works if there is international agreement about the rules. Britain has chosen not to adopt the rules used across Europe and can hardly complain if that bites. It would be like complaining that it was hard to sell British built boats in Europe if builders here ignored the RCD.

In other words, you can't freely move any old goods.

I don't really care which bureaucrats are 'in the right' or 'in the wrong' - between them they have had ample time to sort out this issue, whilst the innocent person on the ground (or water), one way or another, pays the price.

 

[jimi]

Re: Belgium fines boat with traces of red - June 2017

If I now start to collect receipts for red diesel on the 60/40 split on duty would that avoid issues when and if I go to the Netherlands or Belgium in summer 2018?
Is the Netherlands a safer bet for avoidance of fines?

As I posted earlier RATS in the Cruising Association consider that 60/40 is not advisable.

The Use of Marine Red Diesel by Pleasure Craft When In Belgian Waters
The condition still holds that, when going into Belgian waters, there must be documentation that is less
than one year old which shows the full excise duty has been paid on the red diesel purchased.
From previous advice to Members, RATS continues to say:
• that the full 100% duty must be paid on all marine diesel purchased for voyages to the EU States
• that the printed and signed receipts for all purchases should show that the full 100% duty for
propulsion only has been paid
• the receipt be less than twelve months old
• it must be carried on board the vessel and be available for inspection by the Belgian Customs
• it is advised that re-fuelling is done prior to departure to avoid any complication. However, if the
re-fuelling was done over a year ago, printed proof in the form of the last fuel receipt must be
available to show when this was done in the UK and why fuel has not been bought since then.
Clearly, evidence of the engine hours used and any log records will be useful to demonstrate the
validity of the situation.

 

[Daydream believer]

Well, there was also your complaint about "unelected bureaucrats", which is a standard and odd one, because being unelected is more or less the definition of being a bureaucrat. When did you last vote for the Poole harbourmaster, or for the junior clerk in DWP who processes your pension?

Or is it different when they're foreign?

I can take my complaint to my local MP who, if he thinks it is valid, will take it higher up the chain & in some cases that has had an effect.

 

[jimi]

And people wonder why we voted for what we did! That says it all!
Stu

Your response says a lot as well!

 

[Daydream believer]

The only garage I have ever seen selling red diesel is the one just outside Wooler in Northumberland, which for as long as I can remember has had a pump for "Gazole". It's interesting to hear of at least one other one.

Just outside burnham on crouch

 

[Daydream believer]

So easy to solve the problem , stop going to Belgium , once it hurt their pocket , then maybe some thing will be done about it .
.

I really cannot imagine that the few measly sheckles that british yachtsmen spend in belgium would have any sway whatsoever on the grand scheme of things which goes beyond just our use of red fuel. It also has a bearing on fuel used by the fishing industry which i believe is the main point of disagreement

 

[Sandy]

It amazes me that people use white when red is so much cheaper?

Really?

Last time I bought some, four years ago, it was 90p/l and I had a five mile round trip and an hour of my time to get it. Let me do the sums.

0.90 X 20 = £18
Fuel to get the red = £0.50
Time at £50 an hour (as it is me I am not using my full hourly rate)

Total cost £68.50

Using white:

1.15 X 20 = £23.

Trip to get fuel, none as the garage is on the way to the boat.
Time to fill up an extra 10 mins to fill the jerry cans = £6

Total cost = £29

For me it is much cheaper to use white.

OK we don't usually cost our leisure time, but last time I looked at fuel pontoon the red was more expensive than I can buy white at the garage.

PS, I use less than 50 ltrs a year..

 

[sailorman]

I really cannot imagine that the few measly sheckles that british yachtsmen spend in belgium would have any sway whatsoever on the grand scheme of things which goes beyond just our use of red fuel. It also has a bearing on fuel used by the fishing industry which i believe is the main point of disagreement

commercial vessels in Belgium & The Netherlands use red, as does an Oyster in Oostende at the moment that i assume is commercial