R.Y.A at it again!

[Skylark]

On the subject of the RYA, the "Mooring Lines" illustration with the blue rope here is plain silly. It illustrates a line finished with a locking hitch on the same side as the tail is taken back to the boat. The bight will over time tend to open and ultimately release the knot.
https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/e-newsletters/inbrief/Pages/learning-the-ropes.aspx

I agree that the picture is a bit of an “own goal”. Neither does it match the written word so, clearly, the editor should be tied to the mast and flogged until he/she repents.

There isn’t a “right way” of tying a line to a cleat, surely? Boat security is a primary objective and this can be achieved in a number of ways. OXO is but one method of attaching a line to a cleat. I favour a bowline with a turn around the pontoon cleat to prevent chafe and adjustment aboard using the oxo. Mooring overnight is likely different to walking away from the boat for a few weeks as I’m more likely to double lines for added security.

I really don’t like mooring lines with spliced eyes as sooner or later they are guaranteed to snag in a cleat, always at the worst possible time. Doubtlessly my issue as others seem to swear by them.

How about the bitter end of the line, having tied up? We’ve not had an argument on here for a while over the virtues of cheesing/Flemish coil versus other forms of belaying around the guardrail, for example

 

[JumbleDuck]

It costs sailing schools a large chunk of their income to conform to safetry standards on the yachts and in the training centre inspections.

Who levies these large fees for training centre inspections?

The notion about pro training, Mr. JD may be explained. Firstly, the biggest take up, by far, is the Day Skipper training, both theory and practical. Leisure sailors form the core business.

Jolly good.

Of course as some will wish to progress, the cruising scheme will assist and clearly set the bar for those intending to operate commercial vessels. The idea that this is in some way cheating is so far off track that I actually laughed! Sorry. The standards of manning and qualifications are clearly defined for everything from a cross river ferry to Tankers. If you thing that the rule setters are wrong, why not send them an email?

I am told - by someone who skippers on on a proper ticket - that almost all wind turbine jet boats are operated by people with yachtmaster certificates. A loophole is clearly being exploited. If the RYA wants to do qualifications for those intending to operate commercial vessels (or to arrange for the disposal of Russian prostitutes' bodies from superyachts[1]) it can do so, but it's a shame that it no longer thinks anyone in a boat under 30' long can do a Yachtmaster qualification.

[1] I presume this is the main responsibility of superyacht crews.

 

[capnsensible]

Overheads of running a school yacht, aside from the standard mooring fees and maintenance involve quite a substantial annual outlay.

Insurance is, of course, far more expensive. Coded yachts must be routinely subject to survey over a five year period, including out of water surveys too.

For commercial vessels, obviously safety items such as lifejackets, liferafts, gas safety inspections, etc are annual.

To retain an operators licence as an RYA recognised training centre, the school administration, policies and yachts are inspected annually.

Instructors must be kept in date for all relevant training and medical fitness and insured. This may be a school overhead if the Instructors are salaried rather than freelance.

Your constant inferrence that a Commercially Endorsed Yachtmaster Offshore or Ocean for vessels up to 200grt Licence isnt 'proper' I still find, frankly, laughable. Is Master 300 a joke? Chief Mate 3000 just a sop for also rans?

As I said, Im more than happy to help with anything I can, but please be aware that making smartarsey comments about Russian Prostitutes is hardly helping a reasoned debate, is it? Now I may have got it wrong and you are making some kinda jokey thing, so sorry if I dont get your crack at the expense of world respected Sailing Qualifications.

 

[[70521]]

Gosh I wish that I had not made the OXO comment.

By explanation it was the way I was taught and experience has demonstrated that a locking turn is not a good idea. I may have sailed in areas with greater tidal ranges than some.

Many of the postings here do show that there are a number of armchair admirals who have little understanding of the RYA training system and how it is used for leisure and commercial sectors.

 

[CLB]

Gosh I wish that I had not made the OXO comment.

By explanation it was the way I was taught and experience has demonstrated that a locking turn is not a good idea. I may have sailed in areas with greater tidal ranges than some.

I doubt it, unless you have sailed in the Bay of Fundy, and even then a couple of metres more than you get in the bay of St Malo, Channel Islands and the Severn estuary will hardly make any difference to the way you tie your boat up. Try again.

 

[dom]

Gosh I wish that I had not made the OXO comment.

By explanation it was the way I was taught and experience has demonstrated that a locking turn is not a good idea. I may have sailed in areas with greater tidal ranges than some.

Many of the postings here do show that there are a number of armchair admirals who have little understanding of the RYA training system and how it is used for leisure and commercial sectors.

Oh dear, I and others have explained the advantages of a locking turn and why one should be grateful if it ever tightens. What have tidal ranges got to do with this?

I'm guessing you mean that a badly moored boat will see its mooring lines come under tension as the tide falls, which will in turn see the locking hitch tighten to the point of being impossible to open. If so, it follows that you believe an OXO would normally slip under such strain, for there is no other way the hitch could otherwise tighten.

Why am I guessing this? Because there are those who react to the merest suspicion of insult to the RYA by rushing from the shadows to smite down their foes with off-topic cries of "armchair admirals" and other such sanctimonious nonsense.

Now, back to that humble little knot....

 

[alant]

It seems that the RYA training programme is now designed for sea schools to make money training people who want to command small commercial vessels with a cheap alternative to a proper master's ticket. Forumites will remember the occasion a couple of years ago when they invented a completely new rule to prevent new of our number taking his YM exam in his own boat on the grounds that it was too small.

Which is fine, of course, because the RYA is a private member's club and can do what it wants, but it does seem a shame that they are moving out of small yacht stuff without anyone else - apparently - stepping in.

Me? RYA Elementary Dayboat. With tidal endorsement!

Why, would anyone 'need' a "proper masters ticket", with up to 12 passengers, to sail a small yacht commercially?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Your constant inferrence that a Commercially Endorsed Yachtmaster Offshore or Ocean for vessels up to 200grt Licence isnt 'proper' I still find, frankly, laughable.

Laugh away, my dear chap. All I can tell you is that people in the industry say they are not terribly impressed at people getting qualifications in 35' sailing yachts which they then used to command very much larger commercial craft, and that I am saddened that the RYA no longer thinks that YM is an appropriate qualification for anyone in a smaller yacht.

 

[PhillM]

Hang on, were we not discussing ICC? I slipped away for a few hours and its all gone off topic.

Anyway, the point I want to make is an ICC lasts for five years so a one off fee of £45 is less than £45 PER YEAR for RYA membership, not the same as suggested earlier in the thread.

 

[alant]

Oh dear, I and others have explained the advantages of a locking turn and why one should be grateful if it ever tightens. What have tidal ranges got to do with this?

I'm guessing you mean that a badly moored boat will see its mooring lines come under tension as the tide falls, which will in turn see the locking hitch tighten to the point of being impossible to open. If so, it follows that you believe an OXO would normally slip under such strain, for there is no other way the hitch could otherwise tighten.

Why am I guessing this? Because there are those who react to the merest suspicion of insult to the RYA by rushing from the shadows to smite down their foes with off-topic cries of "armchair admirals" and other such sanctimonious nonsense.

Now, back to that humble little knot....

"advantages of a locking turn"????

 

[JumbleDuck]

Why, would anyone 'need' a "proper masters ticket", with up to 12 passengers, to sail a small yacht commercially?

They wouldn't. But equally, why should a ticket designed to allow someone to sail a small yacht around safely be a shortcut to operating a sizeable commercial vessel?

 

[alant]

Oh dear, I and others have explained the advantages of a locking turn and why one should be grateful if it ever tightens. What have tidal ranges got to do with this?

I'm guessing you mean that a badly moored boat will see its mooring lines come under tension as the tide falls, which will in turn see the locking hitch tighten to the point of being impossible to open. If so, it follows that you believe an OXO would normally slip under such strain, for there is no other way the hitch could otherwise tighten.

Why am I guessing this? Because there are those who react to the merest suspicion of insult to the RYA by rushing from the shadows to smite down their foes with off-topic cries of "armchair admirals" and other such sanctimonious nonsense.

Now, back to that humble little knot....

Read #73 again.

 

[Graham376]

They wouldn't. But equally, why should a ticket designed to allow someone to sail a small yacht around safely be a shortcut to operating a sizeable commercial vessel?

Same reason a PPL counts towards as CPL.

The RYA qualifications amuse me in some ways. I passed my YM Sail Offshore many years ago with minimum sea time and got a commercial endorsement more or less overnight, the wording of which at that time "permits the holder to be master of a vessel up to 200 grt". OTOH my ICC restricts me to max 10m power and to get that increased would entail another (paid for) course!

 

[dom]

Read #75 again.

Gee thanks!

Post #75 is Poignard giving a thumbs up to post #74 extolling the virtues of a locking hitch

Here is post #74 for ease of reference:

"Better to untangle a locked locking-turn than try to find a drifting boat

Only way a lock-turn can tighten is if original oxo was slipping!"​

 

[Poignard]

Gee thanks!

Post #75 is Poignard giving a thumbs up to post #74 extolling the virtues of a locking hitch

What greater endorsement could you have?

 

[alant]

They wouldn't. But equally, why should a ticket designed to allow someone to sail a small yacht around safely be a shortcut to operating a sizeable commercial vessel?

Do you really think, that anyone would be let loose on a "sizeable commercial vessel", just on the basis of an RYA certificate? No-one seems to worry about a complete novice driving a powerful jetski, or RIB without any training at all, but very unlikely any organisation would allow anyone to drive their prized/valued commercial vessel. Even with years of experience & appropriate tickets, potential skippers are carefully checked out first, even in smaller boats. Sea Schools don't let an instructor near their customer base, without a test drive or strong reference from others in the industry & they ain't just checking your string pulling skills.

 

[alant]

Gee thanks!

Post #75 is Poignard giving a thumbs up to post #74 extolling the virtues of a locking hitch

Here is post #74 for ease of reference:

"Better to untangle a locked locking-turn than try to find a drifting boat

Only way a lock-turn can tighten is if original oxo was slipping!"​

Try again #73.

 

[penberth3]

Do you really think, that anyone would be let loose on a "sizeable commercial vessel", just on the basis of an RYA certificate? No-one seems to worry about a complete novice driving a powerful jetski, or RIB without any training at all, but very unlikely any organisation would allow anyone to drive their prized/valued commercial vessel. Even with years of experience & appropriate tickets, potential skippers are carefully checked out first, even in smaller boats. Sea Schools don't let an instructor near their customer base, without a test drive or strong reference from others in the industry & they ain't just checking your string pulling skills.

Spot on. An employer has a duty to check competence, and there's a lot more to that than having a piece of paper.

BTW, I worry about complete novices on jetskis and RIBs!

 

[dom]

What greater endorsement could you have?

 

[Poignard]

The photo from the RYA website is a bad example. There's no point in having that long tail led back to the boat since the line can't be slipped from the boat. It would have been better to tie an eye in the pontoon end of the line and pass it up through the eye in the white rope or put a round turn and two half hitches around a leg of the cleat. This latter technique is what I was taught on a RYA-approved course at John Goode's Southern Sailing School more than 20 years ago and I have never found any reason not to keep doing it. It is also what I use in France, where many marinas don't have horned cleats on the pontoons.

On my deck cleats I use one round turn, a couple of oxos and a locking hitch. Seems to work OK except my wife invariably does the locking turn the wrong way so while she is making tea I go round and correct it. (Discreetly, so as not to hurt her feelings. )