Qualifications for boaters.

[lpdsn]

I get as frustrated as anyone with WAFIs who believe because there is no legal compulsion to learn the ColRegs you don't need to learn them, but regardless of this the current system works better than systems with compulsory licences.

The accident rate with voluntary or no training is extremely low whereas compulsory licences seem to give people just enough knowledge and confidence to be dangerous.

 

[lpdsn]

Spain where a certificate is needed to take control of a boat has today thanks to the guardia. Civil discovered 827 cases of people obtaining a certificate without sitting the exam....

From all I've heard of the Spanish system, they were probably not a great deal less competent than those who'd passed the exam.

 

[Binman]

We would all end up with a provisional license, as we would need to prove we could pass the test, restricted to nothing over 7m, with the written exam part in five stages, carrying a sticker on our boat, and flying a flag with a large L on it, then a P once we had passed. Inflatable dinghys banned, engine no more than 5hp.Would need to be able to read the ssr number on another boat at 25 feet Would have to have a qualified person with us at all times.period to qualify two years, On qualifying, a retest every ten years, Including medical, unable to join a sailing club until you had a provisional license.

 

[Robin]

Here in Florida and several other States you are required to have passed a boaters safety course unless of a certai age o) but despite having an ICC, I decided to take the test, online. out of pure interest. I have never seen such a dumbed down piece of carp in my life, i passed with a 98% pass score and have a flashy plastic pass card to wave at anyone who asks and cannot see I'm age exempt anyway. Multiple choice answers to silly questions. but I suppose by reading the questions you are unknowingly reading the regulations piecemeal and might just retain the odd one in your memory. Lots of the questions relate to small whizz abouts. an example of a dumb question was what should you expect to see by the helm position on a motor runabout? answers included a fire extinguisher, a vhf transceiver or placard denoting how many persons maximum the boat can carry. I incorrectly answered fire extinguisher, correct answer placard saying max number of persons, hence my failure to get a 100% pass score.

Does this certificate, which is a lifetime one, only death revokes it. make me a safer boater? :nonchalance:

 

[pmagowan]

The general impression is that they can keep their regulations but a few people are in favour. Interestingly those in favour simply state it as a good idea but don't elaborate on why. If we solve every problem that doesn't exist with regulation then we won't be able to get out of bed without 15 certificates in our massive filing cabinet.

 

[john_morris_uk]

As an examiner and instructor it would appear to be in my interest to support mandatory licensing.

However the opposite is true for many of the reasons already given. There's no evidence of need, nor of any potential improvement in safety and accident rates etc etc. I see no reason for compulsory testing and licensing of pleasure boat owners in the UK.

My experience of the Med' and places where there is compulsory licensing is that there is NO evidence to suggest that they are better boaters.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Humm, well having been following threads in these hallowed forums for a while now I am of the opinion that the current system of encouraging the RYA courses as a means of proficiency is sadly lacking in its application and purpose.

So so many posters state that they know Colregs etc and have RYA this and that and a yacht longer than others but when discussing issues, esp in Scuttlebutt, tis very obvious that thems do not properly understand the very very basics of the issues.

I called in a local RYS training school and asked them if they taught the basics about when Colregs are and are not the over riding factor in 'rights of way', no they did not, despite teaching in a Harbour that gives Commercial Vessels unhindered right of way at all times.

 

[ziacek]

I called in a local RYS training school and asked them if they taught the basics about when Colregs are and are not the over riding factor in 'rights of way', no they did not, despite teaching in a Harbour that gives Commercial Vessels unhindered right of way at all times.

Perhaps they did not understand your question as Colregs do not define "right of way"

 

[Capt Popeye]

Perhaps they did not understand your question as Colregs do not define "right of way"

Ah, Colregs do state quite clearly when Colregs rules /conditions might be required give way to local Port and Harbour by laws and regulations. Must say 'that not many people know that'. Which is my basis for disagreement with the current teachings in Yacht circles.

When, say, the incident in Southampton Waters happened, many on here argued Colregs in support of the Skipper of the damaged yacht, when the Port / Harbour regs, understandably, gave the Ship Master right of unhindered way. This I would suggest is quite a dangerous situation when one considers the large number of Yacht Skippers who sail in Southampton Waters. One poster actually asked, 'when and how do we know that we are in restricted waters', well would suggest that that is pretty basic information and is clearly written in the first pages of Colregs. But as I said earlier, 'not many people know that'.

So would any exam or licence to set sail work, clearly not so far.

 

[Sandy Bottom]

There is a simple statistic that demonstrates the self-regulating nature of leisure boating, that is the overall ratio that the marine insurance industry applies to leisure / small commercial boat insurance. It is very low, and very consistent and averages out at between 0.75 and 1.25% of value IIRC (this is the overall fleet value, it won't always transfer to an individual vessel, and I am quoting figures supplied by our commercial marine insurance brokers a couple of decades ago). Big marine accidents and bad hurricanes etc. change the annual rate upwards but then it cycles back down again due to market competition.

That ratio is very low, demonstrating an inherently self regulating leisure boat industry - and the regulator is? The sea itself of course. 99.9% of people have a basic, inherent, deep respect for the power of the sea, sinking, fire, breakdowns etc. when there is no Police, AA, or Fire Service to call on. When an inexperienced person gets caught out in bad weather that they cannot cope with, then assuming that they survive, they either give up boating, get more training, or take more caution over cruise distances / weather forecasts - it self regulates one way or the other.

In 45 years of leisure, commercial, and instructor boating plus a career at sea I can recall only a handful of serious peacetime incidents at sea which I personally witnessed (including the 79 Fastnet). The tragic loss of Rob James off Salcome was another and he was very experienced. But from the thousands of small incidents that happen every weekend in UK leisure boating very very few result in the sort of outcomes that would justify regulation (and the MCA does not have the capability anyway).

It works, leave alone, the sea is the most powerful regulator on planet earth.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Humm, .......

You are partially correct. A previous syllabus for Day Skipper practical did have a section on IRPCS (as it still does) and a section on local rules and regulations, the latter is not a specific line in the current practical course syllabus. The Day Skipper Theory, which is considered to be a pre requisite for Day Skipper includes the local rules and regulations under the Pilotage Section which includes Harbour Entry. I think the instructor notes are more detailed in this area but I don't have them and have not read them for years.

 

[Twister_Ken]

There is a simple statistic that demonstrates the self-regulating nature of leisure boating, that is the overall ratio that the marine insurance industry applies to leisure / small commercial boat insurance. It is very low, and very consistent and averages out at between 0.75 and 1.25% of value IIRC

Makes you think!

My boat insurance premium and my car insurance premium are, roughly, the same. My car is approximately 10% of the value of my boat. Therefore insurers anticipate that a claim involving a motor vehicle is 10x more likely (per vehicle) than one for a sailing boat (don't they?). And that despite the fact that every road user (theoretically) is trained, tested and licensed.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

There is a simple statistic .....

Good post on the subject, some hard facts that actually matter when considering the point.

 

[GrahamM376]

I think must of us (predominately sailors in slow boats) agree that knowledge is necessary but mandatory training is bad but, what about high powered fast powerboats, including pwc which can do a lot of damage to others, even by their wake? Do the same thoughts apply?

 

[ip485]

It occurs to me that so far as us sailors go much of the time we are pleased to be doing 4 or 5 knots, some of the time we might be doing 6 or 7 knots, and occasionally 8+ knots.

Down the gym, or on the pavement, I am quite pleased to be running at 11 kph which is 6 knots., and 8 knots is pushing on a bit but hardly a sprint, but I never find myself consulting the Colregs to avoid bumping into other pedestrians even though they are often feet away from me and there are lots of them. A stand on pedestrain, now there is a thought.

Perhaps the human brain manages to work things out at those sort of speeds most of the time even in very close quarters - or as I like to point out sometimes when sailing, it would be a darn sight quicker to get out and jog.

 

[RupertW]

I think must of us (predominately sailors in slow boats) agree that knowledge is necessary but mandatory training is bad but, what about high powered fast powerboats, including pwc which can do a lot of damage to others, even by their wake? Do the same thoughts apply?

I'd reply to that what I said on one of the earlier posts - the danger is real and a couple in a 35 foot sailing boat were both killed outside our home marina by a powerboat at speed. That was in Croatia where a cert is mandatory so having the mandatory training and cert did nothing to stop reckless boating behaviour. I'm not aware of a similar case in Britain even going back years.

 

[Horace]

Maybe now the economy is recovering it is time the Government took a look at introducing mandatory qualifications for for boat users. Some European countries do. Even the easy going Greeks ask for an ICC or RYA Day Skipper when chattering. This is checked by Port Police too.
Sailing around much of the Med is more straight forward than say the Solent.
I for one would support a MCA run scheme to qualify users of yachts, RIBs and power boats.
It's almost farcical that someone can buy a fast or difficult to sail boat and put to sea.
The RYA seems to be dumbing down its "qualifications" maybe making certificates easy to obtain to further it's commercial activities.

If you feel inadequate you have the option of taking training courses & 'getting 'qualified' up to the eyeballs,otherwise I don't think the world needs one more dictator

 

[Robin]

If you feel inadequate you have the option of taking training courses & 'getting 'qualified' up to the eyeballs,otherwise I don't think the world needs one more dictator

Well said indeed:encouragement:

 

[TheCharteringClasses]

Makes you think!

My boat insurance premium and my car insurance premium are, roughly, the same. My car is approximately 10% of the value of my boat. Therefore insurers anticipate that a claim involving a motor vehicle is 10x more likely (per vehicle) than one for a sailing boat (don't they?). And that despite the fact that every road user (theoretically) is trained, tested and licensed.

You're actually insuring the against the damage you might do rather than the value of the thing. Even cheap cars can do a lot of damage.

 

[jac]

If you feel inadequate you have the option of taking training courses & 'getting 'qualified' up to the eyeballs,otherwise I don't think the world needs one more dictator

One of the best posts on here for a while!