Qualifications for boaters.

[jwilson]

I have lived and sailed in places with compulsory qualifications (and had to do the tests to get them) and there was not the slightest improvement in safety over here - in fact some of the most dangerous behaviour I have seen was in those places. What happens is that the bare minimum level of qualification becomes the standard, and the exams are almost always purely a paper-based exercise.

 

[CFarr]

I have to say I agree with the majority on here. It's just that when tragedies like this happen -
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/no-one-blame-whitby-tragedy-3729666
- that I start to wonder if people should have some knowledge before venturing out.
Three deaths and two families devastated - easily avoidable if you're at least aware of what can happen.

 

[Serin]

I have to say I agree with the majority on here. It's just that when tragedies like this happen -
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/no-one-blame-whitby-tragedy-3729666
- that I start to wonder if people should have some knowledge before venturing out.
Three deaths and two families devastated - easily avoidable if you're at least aware of what can happen.

A truism, perhaps, but one with substance - hard cases make bad law.

 

[pmagowan]

I have to say I agree with the majority on here. It's just that when tragedies like this happen -
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/local-news/no-one-blame-whitby-tragedy-3729666
- that I start to wonder if people should have some knowledge before venturing out.
Three deaths and two families devastated - easily avoidable if you're at least aware of what can happen.

There is absolutely no evidence that regulation would have made any difference in that case. In fact, it seems incredibly unlikely that it would have. The father still doesn't see that they may had made a bad decision even after the event and a bit of paper on the boat would hardly have assisted to change their minds. There will always be people who make mistakes, are careless or foolhardy. Most will get away with it, some will not.

 

[CFarr]

There is absolutely no evidence that regulation would have made any difference in that case. In fact, it seems incredibly unlikely that it would have. The father still doesn't see that they may had made a bad decision even after the event and a bit of paper on the boat would hardly have assisted to change their minds. There will always be people who make mistakes, are careless or foolhardy. Most will get away with it, some will not.

As I said, I don't agree with regulation but.....
Those three were obviously oblivious to the risk and paid the price.
It's then that I start to question the current situation but you're correct, a bit of paper would have made no difference, but a bit of knowledge might have helped.

 

[RupertW]

As I said, I don't agree with regulation but.....
Those three were obviously oblivious to the risk and paid the price.
It's then that I start to question the current situation but you're correct, a bit of paper would have made no difference, but a bit of knowledge might have helped.

Actually, this is the first clear example I've seen where I do suspect compulsory qualification may have saved them. But to change my position on the matter I would still want to see how often this happens here and how often it also happens in countries with mandatory qualifications - and even then it would have to save substantial numbers of lives each year to be worth the bureacracy, taxpayers money and effort to maintain the system for the vast majority of boaters who do no harm now.

 

[pmagowan]

As I said, I don't agree with regulation but.....
Those three were obviously oblivious to the risk and paid the price.
It's then that I start to question the current situation but you're correct, a bit of paper would have made no difference, but a bit of knowledge might have helped.

I am not sure there is any regulatory mechanism that would enforce the knowledge of the special conditions of a specific harbour in specific weather and tide. The only thing that is likely to help is experience and even that doesn't seem to affect some people as much as others. It sounds like there were all sorts of things this crew should have done that they didn't and if there had been a license that may have been one of them. As I said, people make mistakes and some people are simply foolhardy. We hope to learn from our mistakes if we have the chance. Single episodes, no matter how tragic, do not make a good basis for deciding on blanket regulation. We can choose to go to sea with or without the knowledge to keep us safe (or safer) and one would hope that common sense would dictate that we would choose the former. For those who do not the risks are higher but it is their risk.

 

[maby]

I am not sure there is any regulatory mechanism that would enforce the knowledge of the special conditions of a specific harbour in specific weather and tide. The only thing that is likely to help is experience and even that doesn't seem to affect some people as much as others. It sounds like there were all sorts of things this crew should have done that they didn't and if there had been a license that may have been one of them. As I said, people make mistakes and some people are simply foolhardy. We hope to learn from our mistakes if we have the chance. Single episodes, no matter how tragic, do not make a good basis for deciding on blanket regulation. We can choose to go to sea with or without the knowledge to keep us safe (or safer) and one would hope that common sense would dictate that we would choose the former. For those who do not the risks are higher but it is their risk.

As I said above, compulsory qualifications are unlikely to make any noticeable difference to safety on the water. If it were enforceable, compulsory licences to drive a boat could since they could be revoked for people who have demonstrated dangerous levels of incompetence or irresponsibility - but compulsory licences could not be enforced without a massive investment in marine police which is never going to happen. So, it becomes an academic question - I've certainly come across people who should not be in command of large or fast vessels, but nobody is going to stop them.

 

[Davy_S]

[QUOTEI have to say I agree with the majority on here. It's just that when tragedies like this happen -
http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/lo...ragedy-3729666
- that I start to wonder if people should have some knowledge before venturing out.
Three deaths and two families devastated - easily avoidable if you're at least aware of what can happen.[/QUOTE]
This was indeed a terrible tragedy, I remember it at the time, I used to fish from the piers and charter boats, conditions can be severe. All they had to do was take a walk along North jetty and they would have seen the prevailing conditions outside the harbour, I don't think that a piece of paper would have prevented what happened, but common sense would have. The same weather pattern sends a huge swell past Flamborough head, the cobbles can fish this in a 7 metre swell, there is a football pitch space between the waves, like a safe roller coaster!

 

[pmagowan]

As I said above, compulsory qualifications are unlikely to make any noticeable difference to safety on the water. If it were enforceable, compulsory licences to drive a boat could since they could be revoked for people who have demonstrated dangerous levels of incompetence or irresponsibility - but compulsory licences could not be enforced without a massive investment in marine police which is never going to happen. So, it becomes an academic question - I've certainly come across people who should not be in command of large or fast vessels, but nobody is going to stop them.

Do they pose a significant risk to others? I suspect not, in the grand scheme of things. There are always going to be knobheads but I am not sure that a license is likely to reduce their number. Since there is not a significant problem and when boating you are at more risk from your own incompetence than other's then I think we can lay it to bed and move on. Nobody has the resources, will, or reason to bring more regulation into boating so lets carry on as we have been doing since the dawn of time.

 

[Wansworth]

Spain where a certificate is needed to take control of a boat has today thanks to the guardia. Civil discovered 827 cases of people obtaining a certificate without sitting the exam....

 

[Davy_S]

Spain where a certificate is needed to take control of a boat has today thanks to the guardia. Civil discovered 827 cases of people obtaining a certificate without sitting the exam....

Was there not something similar happened in Portugal with ICCs (Forged ones) I think.

 

[GrahamM376]

Was there not something similar happened in Portugal with ICCs (Forged ones) I think.

Haven't heard of it but quite likely possible as much can be done if one has the right personal contacts.

 

[Budgieboy]

Not for me ..... have sailed from Brighton since I was in my early 20's now 53 , they had no big bag of tickets then or I never knew about them so I now have to go back to school ? I think it a liberty that I have to renew an ICC ! Oh yes my Dad who is deaf and dangerous got one of those bent Spanish tickets from a mate in Gyb ! asked if I wanted one , so told him to go ahead , next week it appears in the post ! ..... at least I am qualified on paper .... now off to the forum to find the one about what other boaters do to annoy you ... calling for more rules and costs .....

 

[ip485]

The reality is there are a huge number of past times you can do that arent regulated and which are quite capable of (sadly) killing you. Rock climbing, bouldering, canoeing, dinghy sailing, scuba diving (yes scuba diving) etc so the list goes on. In each case it would be wise to have some training and to understand the risks but the number of deaths and the risks to others is sufficiently small so as not to justify regulation (and that is the reality).

In contrast general aviation (light aircraft) are regulated and the training is reasonably exact, but a few pilots kill themselves every year either because the training was inadequate or they thought they knew better or a combination of both and / or bad luck. So despite exacting qualifications, training and recurrency the decisions of some pilots literally beggars belief which leads one to suspect that with or without training there will all be those that are irresponsible or prepared to push the boundaries beyond that which is reasonable.

Here pilots require regular medicals if flying typical light aircraft, but now no medical if flying very light aircraft (well a doctors sign off which is far less exacting) and in the USA medicals for light aircraft pilots will become a thing of the past. Why? Well the evidence is not convincing that medicals are justified - again it doesnt mean the medicals dont prevent one or a few pilots each year killing themselves from a medical condition which would have been picked up and meant their licence was suspended.

So regulation might prevent the loss of life in a very few cases, but as sad as those losses are, regulation must always be proportional so first we must be satisfied the cost justifies the ends, and then the ends are really that there are fewer fatalities than would occur in just the same way were the "sport" regulated.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Even the easy going Greeks ask for an ICC or RYA Day Skipper when chattering. This is checked by Port Police too.

Humm, so its all talk talk then is it ?

 

[KRG]

Maybe now the economy is recovering it is time the Government took a look at introducing mandatory qualifications for for boat users.

No!!! more regulation from bureaucrats is the last thing we need.

 

[ip485]

Never been asked for anything anywhere but maybe just lucky. As it happens never been asked for pilot's licence either.

Mind you, usually in all these things it ends up being the insurers that police thse things, you dont want to have an accident and find you are unlicenced (even if a temporary technical lapse isnt always penalised).

 

[Halcyon Yachts]

A mandatory license could be a good idea, but it would need to mean more than just paying a fee to get it - which I think sadly would the be the case at present.

Sailing has a great way of self regulating. A lot of us underestimate our own ability. As electronic aids are becoming so cheap and easy to use this culture could change and we could start to see people thinking that it is easy to sail out into the harbour with little or no experience. Given that the seas are becoming busier and busier this could clearly be a dangerous situation for us all...

Pete

 

[Bodach na mara]

Sadly, I am aware of several incidents resulting in loss of vessel, life or both and in most of them, the root cause was not lack of qualification but over-confidence. The sad thing is that many people confuse qualification with ability and experience. As on the road, the most dangerous people are those who have gained a licence and as a result think that they now know all that they need to.

I was among this group. 55 years ago, I used to argue that I was a better driver and could drive faster that older drivers because my reflexes were better and I had more recent training. Fortunately I did not own a car and nobody would lend me one. After several of my friends crashed their cars or ended upside down in rivers, I reviewed my thoughts a bit. I still managed to have 7 minor accidents in my first 5 years as a motorist. By the way, I have been about boats for 70 years now and still have no licence. Nor have I had had any boating accidents except the odd grounding on "uncharted" rocks.