lynallbel
Active member
Guy I know is desperate for a boat, he simply cannot find what he is looking for.
Prices going down already me thinks
- Thread starter Bigplumbs
- Start date
ST840
Well-known member
What’s he after?
oldgit
Well-known member
Brokers probably all have a list of genuine keen ready to go buyers by now. First on their contact list will be low hanging fruit. Buyers with ready cash and no boat to sell.
Boats coming onto the market, the "nicer ones " will never sully the brokers lists and any associated advertising costs can be trousered.
Anything that actually makes the internet listings will have been thoroughly picked over and rejected by those first in the que ?
Boats coming onto the market, the "nicer ones " will never sully the brokers lists and any associated advertising costs can be trousered.
Anything that actually makes the internet listings will have been thoroughly picked over and rejected by those first in the que ?
I’m no expert
Member
I’m not sure that’s completely correct, maybe the larger brokers have a black book but it’s also in the brokers interest to drive traffic to their site and further add to the black book.
My boat did make the internet listings but was basically sold before the listings went live, still it generated interest to the broker.
Interestingly having a conversation with the broker he said there are quite a few tyre kickers around thinking they can still get a bargain by offering a lot less than the asking price, those days are long gone for now, at least for anything half decent, it’s a complete sellers market.
It’s the good old supply and demand, right now if you order a new boat you will be lucky to get it before September 2022 so if you want to go boating in summer 2022 then the used market is the only way.
lynallbel
Active member
Tbh I dont think he has a clue himself, and is looking at all sorts!
He seems to think all that is left is either over priced or the dregs.
oldgit
Well-known member
Was involved in recent boat sale.
The boat achieved 10- 15% more than would have been expected pre the present market with added bonus on top of saving £4 K of broker commission.
Seller is leaving boating buying a large new motorhome.
ari
Well-known member
I don't think that they are anywhere, some people just seem to like to think that they are.
prinex
Active member
Little story here .. I eyed a yacht before summer, 50", 15 years old. Asking 280K Euro. I made the call they would never sell it and decided to give them a call after the season. And the boat was still there ! Only the owner wanted 340K Euro now and "non negotiable".
So for sure is the wishful thinking of the poor peasants like me, wishing the price bubble will go away. But on the other side is an equally wishful thinking that a 15 y/o yacht, ready for refit / major motor and systems overhaul and old design on top is still worth half the value of the actual brand new model, which is probably twice as good (design, technical solutions etc) as the 2006 one.
Looks a bit when you have that real estate bubbles, specially in places like Ibiza or so, where people buy homes (which also cost maintenance etc) speculating that the price will increase and offset the costs. With this logic it makes perfect sense to pay 300K for a old boat because "for sure" it will be worth 350 in a few years and we make free boat holiday forever. Only that it does not make perfect sense, it makes no sense at all, exactly like the holiday homes bubble that cyclically burst. And a old boat is not real estate, it will not exist anymore in 20 years. Still it is happening and only thing we can do is wait for the rude awakening in 4-5 years and the inevitable flooding of boats that no one wants anymore.
Portofino
Well-known member
Few other dog walkers out this AM staying in the hotel in Loano marina . 2 Eng speakers got talking as you do .
After boats unable to get sorted . No boats about .
Citing the crash of 2008 = no new ones for a while , or supply cut .
This is now causing a hiatus a decade or so down the line.
The demand side of the market balance far outweighs the supply what’s available.
One guy had view a couple of scrappy ones , but nothing 1/2 decent or quality .
After boats unable to get sorted . No boats about .
Citing the crash of 2008 = no new ones for a while , or supply cut .
This is now causing a hiatus a decade or so down the line.
The demand side of the market balance far outweighs the supply what’s available.
One guy had view a couple of scrappy ones , but nothing 1/2 decent or quality .
Momac
Well-known member
Not sure about that .
I see quite a few older boats being give a fair it of TLC recently , possibly fuelled by the increase in values and new owners wanting to make sure everything is in working order . That that has been the case a while but more so in recent times.
I thinking the recent price jump is a long overdue inflationary adjustment and it may well stick.
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julians
Well-known member
I think it will stick, not least in the UK because brexit has reduced the pool of easily accessible boats to essentially just those already located in the UK.
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Chris H
Active member
Speaking to the broker in Cap Ferrat, he has no boats for sale with a list of buyers waiting for anything that comes up.
ari
Well-known member
Seems a slightly odd decision to spend a considerable six figure sum on something you believe will not exist anymore 5 years later...
I don't think anyone is buying boats with the same mindset as property - believing that they have an appreciating asset in which value increase will offset running costs. It's simply that supply and demand has shifted and boats cost more, so if you want to buy one, this is the price now.
I think people forget how stable prices used to be (a 1990 Fairline Targa 33 was worth about £60K for years and years) and how suddenly boats dropped in value in the late 2000 recession (suddenly that 33 Targa was a £40K boat, or maybe £30K to get it shifted). Boats got (comparatively) very cheap very fast. Maybe all we're seeing is a correction back toward what they were always traditionally worth.
Moonstruck
Active member
Completely agree. I have a 12 year old boat that I have had for 11 years. I do everything I can to keep it in as near new condition . I have this year been asked twice if I will sell it. If I did I am told I could get back around 95% of what I paid for it in 2010! In my 21 years of boat ownership these are different times. However as I love the boat and don’t want to give up boating , why would I sell it. Everything else has gone up as well particularly if it is in good condition with a service record. I am sure that if I keep on top of the maintenance then it will out last me.
A combination of factors are causing the increases. People reevaluating their life styles. Less foreign holidays for some. High levels of employment. A strong economy. Shortage of new boats meaning demand for second hand increases. Between 2008 and 2012 fewer new boats were sold reducing the availability of second hand for sale during that build period. Brexit reducing the number of boats returning from the Med and making buying from the EU more expensive.
Prices will not keep rising, the same for houses. However at the moment for both, demand is far out stripping supply. Brokers are desperate for boats to sell. Estate agents are desperate for property. My daughter has just had an offer accepted on her first house. The agent stopped showing buyers after 38 had asked to view!!
Nobody can predict the future . Who would have thought two years ago that we would be having this discussion ?
Certainly at the moment I see no sign at all of prices dropping . In 12 months? Who knows??
DrSpock
Active member
Greg2
Well-known member
Whilst it is difficult to predict what might happen I think there is definitely something in this. When we first bought a boat over twenty years ago the expectation was that it would hold its value in ££££ terms - so if bought for £X it was likely that you would sell it for somewhere near £X even several years later.
As a counter to the view expressed by prinex, we have owned 20 year old boats and our current boat has just reached that landmark, but it is a long way from reaching the end of its life. GRP, gel coat and stainless steel, which constitute most external materials, have longevity and even our original teak decks have a lot of life left in them yet. Internally some refurbishment is underway and we have upgraded systems but the engines are likely to see us out, assuming that diesel or a substitute remain available.
Our boat is still available as a new build with updated interior, engines, etc but at a cost that is eye watering when compared to our boat, which will do everything that the new one will. With this in mind there is merit to the argument that used boats had become too cheap IMHO.
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Hooligan
Well-known member
I spoke to a broker in Lefkada. He said everything sells within seconds of hitting the market. My view is that in any asset sale there is no such thing as under or over value. The price of anything is what people will buy it for on any specific day. What there is is big demand on little supply. Pure and simple. Prices will trend higher for as long as this continues or to the point where demand diminishes because people will not pay the prices asked. Now in a few years this may all change ie supply exceeding demand and then prices will go down. That does not mean that prices are too high now. The market is what it is and this situation is going to last until the fundamentals change OR interest rates start to go up a lot and hard asset prices correspondingly go down. Given the amount of debt that governments have accumulated to pay people not to work amongst everything else, i cannot see any government in a hurry to see rates rise - ergo who said CBs are independent!!!!
prinex
Active member
Is not a cycle that will end in a year or two, we are in for a long ride before it settles down again (or maybe it will never settle down and boat will keep their values for years). To be honest this is also my experience, every boat I bought (all 2nd hand) I could resell years later for same or even a profit. The actual one (Primatist G41) is on his way to being sold to 30% more than what I paid for (broker says 50% more but he is lying of course).
So we made the decision to up (double) our budget and try to buy a decent used boat while there is still some of them around, even if it means "feeling" that it is too expensive, the risk that supply will dry out and all what is left is 20mt 20 years old boat that are impossibly expensive to run, or new which is 1 Mio for a 50 foot .. btw speaking to the guys of a very reputable Yacht builder in Italy, all is sold until 2023 so even that route is closed.
Basically in my case is hold on to the Primatist G41 for another 5-8 years and hope for the best, or "eat" now the 60K/80K price rise on the used compared to last year, part of this rise will be offset by the higher sale price for the old boat (at least 30K) so it will be 30/50K over my expectations but so be it. It may turn in a nice profit again if the trend holds.
This all applies in 55+ size segment. The smaller ones last time I heard used prices are already very close to the price of new boats.
The mix of lots of cash, negative interest, disappearing "easy" way to invest money (or better said the old "buy a home and rent it out it will neve lose value"), the perceived risk going for holiday far from home (Islamic threat, Covid, lockdown and you are stuck overseas etc) was bound to tip over into people saying "well you know what ? Instead of your 0.1% yield Im going for 14% french wine and boats / cars / holiday homes" .
And there is another huge group - the people that can do now remote work instead of being stuck in downtown Frankfurt, in places like Switzerland (where I work and most of the economy is service) it is very visible with empty offices and failing stores, all this people are spending 4-5 months a year at the beach instead of in Switzerland, and they make 150K a year swiss salaries - guess what they think once they see the boats in the marina ? Most of the large companies in Switzerland have officially switched to remote work "once in a while" office time so this people are here to stay.
So it is like a perfect storm brewing, few boats made in the last 14 years, builders switching to large models (for the usual elite) - and suddenly this boatmania.
So we made the decision to up (double) our budget and try to buy a decent used boat while there is still some of them around, even if it means "feeling" that it is too expensive, the risk that supply will dry out and all what is left is 20mt 20 years old boat that are impossibly expensive to run, or new which is 1 Mio for a 50 foot .. btw speaking to the guys of a very reputable Yacht builder in Italy, all is sold until 2023 so even that route is closed.
Basically in my case is hold on to the Primatist G41 for another 5-8 years and hope for the best, or "eat" now the 60K/80K price rise on the used compared to last year, part of this rise will be offset by the higher sale price for the old boat (at least 30K) so it will be 30/50K over my expectations but so be it. It may turn in a nice profit again if the trend holds.
This all applies in 55+ size segment. The smaller ones last time I heard used prices are already very close to the price of new boats.
The mix of lots of cash, negative interest, disappearing "easy" way to invest money (or better said the old "buy a home and rent it out it will neve lose value"), the perceived risk going for holiday far from home (Islamic threat, Covid, lockdown and you are stuck overseas etc) was bound to tip over into people saying "well you know what ? Instead of your 0.1% yield Im going for 14% french wine and boats / cars / holiday homes" .
And there is another huge group - the people that can do now remote work instead of being stuck in downtown Frankfurt, in places like Switzerland (where I work and most of the economy is service) it is very visible with empty offices and failing stores, all this people are spending 4-5 months a year at the beach instead of in Switzerland, and they make 150K a year swiss salaries - guess what they think once they see the boats in the marina ? Most of the large companies in Switzerland have officially switched to remote work "once in a while" office time so this people are here to stay.
So it is like a perfect storm brewing, few boats made in the last 14 years, builders switching to large models (for the usual elite) - and suddenly this boatmania.
Portofino
Well-known member
Suppose with the Med and reasonable Covid friendly accessibility ( ie no flying to large islands ) , with a boat along comes the berth .A place to physically keep it .
A whole new secondary mini boom for newish entrants .A lag so 2022 “ I can’t find a berth threads “ as well as this years “ I can’t find a boat threads “
A whole new secondary mini boom for newish entrants .A lag so 2022 “ I can’t find a berth threads “ as well as this years “ I can’t find a boat threads “
Bigplumbs
Well-known member
I have read this thread I started with interest and it has demonstrated well what people think of when they read the word boat. The boats that I look at are indeed coming down in price and there is becoming a greater supply on various well known internet sites. What I am talking about are however boats from 3 m sibs (many on here would call that a tender) to 19ft (approx) speedboats and ribs. Boats that prior to all this were readily available second hand for under £8,000. During the Summer these same boats went up to about £12,000 - £15,000 and it became very difficult to find one. You can now find them and the prices are creeping down to nearer the £8000 (not there yet).
In a previous thread I asked if people thought it might be a good idea to have a 'small motor boat category' but most thought that a bad Idea which I sort of agreed with but perhaps we need to think about the whole range when the word boat is typed.
What is happening to the price of a 60 foot new Sunseeker I am sure will interest some.
In a previous thread I asked if people thought it might be a good idea to have a 'small motor boat category' but most thought that a bad Idea which I sort of agreed with but perhaps we need to think about the whole range when the word boat is typed.
What is happening to the price of a 60 foot new Sunseeker I am sure will interest some.
