Phoenix of Hamble . . .

The decks never looked in great condition when the boat was in Shotley, so the price may reflect the work needed. I'm not sure the price is that low anyway, this is a 40 year old Taiwanese boat which needs massive upkeep.
 
All the hard work has been done on her, and whilst she had some cosmetic issues, That’s what they are. The deck needs a good tidy, but the last time I was onboard I thought it was fine.

this is one serious solid boat, I suspect the biggest spend would be on new canvas....
 
The decks are probably think enough to be planed back let alone sanded if our Hans Christian is anything to go by...
I also don't understand pvb's comment about a 40 year old Taiwanese boat needing massive upkeep. An older boat that has been well maintained and upgraded will be no more or less of an issue than a more modern one once you get past a certain age. Similarly, if both types have been let go, they will be equally problematic and costly to sort. It's all about the condition and what has been done recently when it comes to a sale. I speak from experience.
 
wingdiver said:
The decks are probably think enough to be planed back let alone sanded if our Hans Christian is anything to go by...
I also don't understand pvb's comment about a 40 year old Taiwanese boat needing massive upkeep. An older boat that has been well maintained and upgraded will be no more or less of an issue than a more modern one once you get past a certain age. Similarly, if both types have been let go, they will be equally problematic and costly to sort. It's all about the condition and what has been done recently when it comes to a sale. I speak from experience.
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The boat has been worked on almost constantly for the last 10 years or so, apart from 2 or 3 years when the owner lost interest. It still needs lots and lots of work. About 5 years ago, when the boat was ashore at Shotley, the then owner posted a "to do" list on his blog - only 187 items! (To-do list)
 
wingdiver said:
pvb... why the mention of a 'Taiwanese boat' it could be any boat old or newish in a certain condition. Maybe I reacted as I own one.... :ROFLMAO:
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Yes, I think you reacted spontaneously. Boats built in Taiwan in the 70s and 80s varied hugely in quality. Labour was cheap, but quality control wasn't great. Some builders got it right; many didn't. As a result, problems appeared as the boats aged. In fairness, the much-lauded Westerly and Moody yachts from the same period had many of the same quality issues.
 
pvb said:
The boat has been worked on almost constantly for the last 10 years or so, apart from 2 or 3 years when the owner lost interest. It still needs lots and lots of work. About 5 years ago, when the boat was ashore at Shotley, the then owner posted a "to do" list on his blog - only 187 items! (To-do list)
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I think your talking out of your bottom frankly.

have you been on board?

how do you know what it needs?

have you even read that list, or know how much was accomplished?


the next time you try to sell your boat, maybe we should be passing some unsubstantiated comments about it as well?
 
photodog said:
I think your talking out of your bottom frankly.

have you been on board?

how do you know what it needs?

have you even read that list, or know how much was accomplished?
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The current owner has published numerous photos, which indicate that a lot of work is needed to bring the boat up to a decent cosmetic condition, and has used that fact as a reason for explaining the current asking price. I haven't been on board, but I did see a lot of the work being done during the years the boat spent ashore. It's a sad fact that people often buy boats with good intentions of restoring them to their former glory. Sometimes, the work involved gets the better of them.
 
pvb said:
The current owner has published numerous photos, which indicate that a lot of work is needed to bring the boat up to a decent cosmetic condition, and has used that fact as a reason for explaining the current asking price. I haven't been on board, but I did see a lot of the work being done during the years the boat spent ashore. It's a sad fact that people often buy boats with good intentions of restoring them to their former glory. Sometimes, the work involved gets the better of them.
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stop speculating about something you don’t know about. It’s not helpful To the current owner, and it’s almost libellous in regards to the former well known forumite who owned the boat previously.

it’s not the lounge.
 
photodog said:
stop speculating about something you don’t know about. It’s not helpful To the current owner, and it’s almost libellous in regards to the former well known forumite who owned the boat previously.

it’s not the lounge.
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There's no speculation in my comment. This is a forum for the free exchange of views.
 
pvb said:
Yes, I think you reacted spontaneously. Boats built in Taiwan in the 70s and 80s varied hugely in quality. Labour was cheap, but quality control wasn't great. Some builders got it right; many didn't. As a result, problems appeared as the boats aged. In fairness, the much-lauded Westerly and Moody yachts from the same period had many of the same quality issues.
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In fairness? You are really not doing yourself any favours with your short-sighted views. Personally I would rather have my ancient Taiwanese boat than any modern paper thin built BavBenJen type of thing. I know which one will look after me best if the going gets tough. Everyone (sureyors/yachting professionals etc - people whose opinion I respect) who have been on board ours remark on how amazing the build quality is. I bet no-one does that with your boat. I feel you would be upset if I suggested you are not the smartest cookie for sailing something that is far from great. I suggest you wind your neck in as photodog suggests... How's that for an 'exchange of views'? Why not take on board the old expression of 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'...
 
photodog said:
stop speculating about something you don’t know about. It’s not helpful To the current owner, and it’s almost libellous in regards to the former well known forumite who owned the boat previously.

it’s not the lounge.
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You claimed the boat needed “lots and lots” of work.

you don’t know how much work it needs. That’s speculation.

you claimed that the work involved with the boat “got the better of “ The previous owner. You don’t know the circumstances of the previous owner. That’s speculation.

you claimed you saw lots of work being done on her when she was ashore.... I happen to know that that is simply not factually correct, There was very little work done on her when she was ashore, and she spent most of the time in the previous owners possession afloat.

you claim the owner “lost interest”. That’s speculation as you don’t know the owners circumstances.

you claim that the boat is Taiwanese and thus is of poor quality, though you had never been on board. Again speculation.

you point to a long to do list as evidence that the boat is in need of massive work, Yet you don’t know how much work was done on her, nor did it appear that you actually had read the list as a very high percentage were upgrades or common sense additions.

your speculation is harming the interests of the current owner who is trying to sell her, as well as the good reputation of the previous.

but by all means keep digging.

just don’t complain when we do a bit of free exchange of views when you come to sell yours.
 
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wingdiver said:
In fairness? You are really not doing yourself any favours with your short-sighted views. Personally I would rather have my ancient Taiwanese boat than any modern paper thin built BavBenJen type of thing. I know which one will look after me best if the going gets tough. Everyone (sureyors/yachting professionals etc - people whose opinion I respect) who have been on board ours remark on how amazing the build quality is. I bet no-one does that with your boat. I feel you would be upset if I suggested you are not the smartest cookie for sailing something that is far from great. I suggest you wind your neck in as photodog suggests... How's that for an 'exchange of views'? Why not take on board the old expression of 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'...
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You're obviously proud of your boat and I'm pleased you've got a good one. There were however a lot of problems with some Taiwanese yachts built in the early 80s. Please note that I'm not suggesting yours has these problems. There was an interesting thread on Sailnet which highlighted a lot of the issues, including this extract by a guy whose parents imported and sold Taiwanese boats...


In a general sense, some very well built boats came out of some of the yards, but for the most part they still had some big design and quality control issues. Taiwanese boats from the early 1980''s tend to have very bad blister problems (far worse than found on most other areas of the world) due to the poor climate control in which these boats were built, the wholesale use of accelerators, careless batching of the resins, and resin rich laminates. There was a tendancy to layup thick hulls with a lot of non-directional material (mat), improperly handled poor grade fiberglass fabrics and resin rich laminates, which tends to produce poor impact resistance and an increased tendancy towards fatigue. Structually many of the Taiwanese boats tended to be crudely done lacking the kind of internal structure systems that were becoming the norm world wide during this period.

Depending on the yard, many, if not most, of the yards tended to use a lot of non-marine plywood even in such vulnerable locations as deck coring and structural bulkheads. Many, if not most, of the yards tended to use knock off fittings so that replacement parts are imposible to find and the useful lifespand is comparatively short. Poor grades of stainless steel fastenings (or even steel fastenings within the interiors and concealed locations on the boats)were typically employed. Many of the better yards were still using black iron fuel and water tanks. Tinned wire was virtually unheard of. Electrical panels and fixtures were generally knock offs of better quality equipment and would prove troublesome once placed into service. (That was the largest source of warranty issues for my folks.)

The tendancy towards heavy but not especially strong laminates meant that boats were often over their design weights and which were also often under-ballasted. That combo would result in some mix of less stability, less carrying capacity, and a more uncomfortable motion than would be expected if the boats were built as designed for other building venues.

Taiwan boats, any good? - SailNet Community

As for "modern paper thin built BavBenJen", this is largely an urban myth. The hulls are properly engineered and laid up carefully to achieve optimum strength. If you compare the hull weight of a typical BavBenJen with the hull weight of a similar length Hallberg-Rassy, etc, you'll be surprised how little difference there is, yet I don't think you'd describe a Hallberg-Rassy as "paper thin". And, as the extract above says, heavy construction isn't necessarily strong.
 
Is it only advertised on a closed facebook group or is it on elsewhere? I cant see the ad, although I have seen the boat. Is it still in Dover?
 
pvb said:
You're obviously proud of your boat and I'm pleased you've got a good one. There were however a lot of problems with some Taiwanese yachts built in the early 80s. Please note that I'm not suggesting yours has these problems. There was an
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We are proud of ours having owned her for nearly 14 years and intend to sail away on her at some stage. I wouldn't risk it on a dodgy boat that was about to fall apart. In fact two long time served surveyors have enthused massively about her as have local boatyards who have worked on her. I know of many other Hans Christians that are great (Mike Coates of Practical Boat Owner fame regularly reported on the one he owned as part of his business for example) and other Taiwanese boats too so to negatively generalise like you are - especially without having owned one is very poor. Given the age of these boats they will, by now, be ready to 'scrap' if they are very badly constructed or will have been sorted to a greater extent by curent and previous owners if they are still in use. Also, why is this boat for sale not also a 'good one.'? The problem everyone is having with you in this thread is that you are giving a massively negative opinion about someone else's boat when you really shouldn't be - you wouldn't like it - look how you jumped quickly on my tongue in cheek comment about modern boats (pot/kettle springs to mind). It's up to prospective buyers to make their own mind up and employ professionals (not forum surfers) to enable them to make an informed decision. Unfortunately, having raised your head above the parapet, given a negative, one sided opinion and been asked to wind your neck in, you don't sem to be able to - even when challenged by several other people. Very unfortunate and makes you look bad.
 
wingdiver said:
We are proud of ours having owned her for nearly 14 years and intend to sail away on her at some stage. I wouldn't risk it on a dodgy boat that was about to fall apart. In fact two long time served surveyors have enthused massively about her as have local boatyards who have worked on her. I know of many other Hans Christians that are great (Mike Coates of Practical Boat Owner fame regularly reported on the one he owned as part of his business for example) and other Taiwanese boats too so to negatively generalise like you are - especially without having owned one is very poor. Given the age of these boats they will, by now, be ready to 'scrap' if they are very badly constructed or will have been sorted to a greater extent by curent and previous owners if they are still in use. Also, why is this boat for sale not also a 'good one.'? The problem everyone is having with you in this thread is that you are giving a massively negative opinion about someone else's boat when you really shouldn't be - you wouldn't like it - look how you jumped quickly on my tongue in cheek comment about modern boats (pot/kettle springs to mind). It's up to prospective buyers to make their own mind up and employ professionals (not forum surfers) to enable them to make an informed decision. Unfortunately, having raised your head above the parapet, given a negative, one sided opinion and been asked to wind your neck in, you don't sem to be able to - even when challenged by several other people. Very unfortunate and makes you look bad.
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I'm sorry you disagree so much with my views. It would be a bland world if everyone agreed, and forums like this wouldn't survive.
 
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