Phoenix of Hamble . . .

wingdiver said:
I agree you are entitled to your opinion but there is a time and a place and you misjudged the situation as mentioned by several forumites....
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Who are the "several forumites", i only see you and one other posting a different viewpoint to PVB.

What makes you think you and photodog have the right to tell another poster to "wind your neck in" and to dictate when it's the "time and place" for someone to have an opinion ?
 
wingdiver said:
I agree you are entitled to your opinion but there is a time and a place and you misjudged the situation as mentioned by several forumites....
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Two forumites, one with a history of confrontation. I didn't notice you taking ryanroberts to task for his post about the deck. It's a forum, you won't always agree with other people's views, so you'll just have to live with it.
 
Is the boat famous that it should get a special mention that it's for sale; wondering why?
 
pvb said:
Two forumites, one with a history of confrontation. I didn't notice you taking ryanroberts to task for his post about the deck. It's a forum, you won't always agree with other people's views, so you'll just have to live with it.
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pvb, I have always found your posts interesting and generally useful, however this thread and "Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?" has changed my opinion of you. I try to be constructive and informative with my posts and I rarely post critical comments. I have now been critical of two of your posts and liked several other posts that have been critical of you. This post is to show there are definitely more than two who disagree with your comments. This does not mean that if we met in person that we could not be civil and have a friendly conversation.
 
Concerto said:
pvb, I have always found your posts interesting and generally useful, however this thread and "Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?" has changed my opinion of you. I try to be constructive and informative with my posts and I rarely post critical comments. I have now been critical of two of your posts and liked several other posts that have been critical of you. This post is to show there are definitely more than two who disagree with your comments. This does not mean that if we met in person that we could not be civil and have a friendly conversation.
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In the other thread you've referred to, you refuted my claim that there had been a problem with Westerly Centaur keels coming loose by saying that "I never heard of problems with the Centaur keels...". I can understand that, as a key member of the Westerly Owners Association, you want to be protective of Westerly yachts' reputation, but surely everyone has heard of problems with Centaur keels? Even the Yachtsnet details on the Centaur say "One of the two commonly known structural problems with Westerly Centaurs is that prolonged and repeated drying out, particularly on sand or mud, placed excess sideways "splaying" pressure on the keels. The problem is totally curable by adding reinforcing layers of GRP to the interior of the keel roots and rebedding the keels."

If you're unhappy with some of my posts, I'm not sure what to suggest. You could add me to your "Ignore" list. Or just accept that not everyone will agree.

Edit: Incidentally, I've just remembered that you were mightily peeved a year or so ago when you proudly posted about the new WOA website, and I and others suggested that it needed improvement. Specifically, I highlighted the fact that there were lots of incorrect spellings and broken links. You wrongly accused me of having "an axe to grind", when I was genuinely trying to help you improve the new website. So perhaps I'm not surprised that you've now jumped in to take any opportunity to criticise me. Anyone interested in seeing the WOA website thread can find it here - New Westerly Owners Association web site
 
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pvb said:
Two forumites, one with a history of confrontation. I didn't notice you taking ryanroberts to task for his post about the deck. It's a forum, you won't always agree with other people's views, so you'll just have to live with it.
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“history of confrontation”......translated for the viewer.... “disagrees with pvb”

Pvb needs to learn to keep his nose out of other people interests.
 
I felt I should respond in detail to your post #26. The post numbers refer to thread Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?

In post #54 you stated
"You may be old enough to remember that Westerly did a similar thing when Centaur keels started falling off. "
Up till this point in the thread , there had been no mention of Westerly. It is like you have an axe to grind which is surprising as I know you have owned a number of Westerlys.

To which Refueler replied in post #58
"Centaur and her sisters and the 'splayed' keels. Usual remedy was owners paid to add rovings ... never heard Westerly pay - Westerly only partially solved it in last runs ... I used to live in Cowplain and knew the Westerly people in Waterloovile just down the road from me. "

You replied in post #60
"I believe the cost of rectification was one of the factors leading to Westerly going bust in 1980/81. "
You are roughly a decade too late for this to have happened and Refueler's comment above says Westerly never paid for repairs.

Refueler replied in post #61
"Maybe ... but when I spoke to the guys - they talked about the cost of developing the Riviera and also the frequent change of owner / management being the final nail.
Blimey - was it that long ago !! Only seems like yesterday I would come out the pub after a pint with the lads."

Rappey responded in post #63
"I thought it was westerly v moody so they were both trying to up their game in terms of interior luxury, but got wiped out by the much cheaper production boats like Bavaria.."
This makes me chuckle as the Dutchman who took the photo in my avatar owned a Bavaria 36 of the mid 1990's came on board my 1980 Fulmar and found in much nicer than his boat as it was warmer with so much wood. My interior is sapele, not the later teak trim and was a decade an a half older than his Bavaria.

It was only in post #65 did I respond
"I never heard of problems with the Centaur keels, but early Griffin twin keel boats did have a problem after one broke off and all were recalled for strengthening. No doubt this information was fed back to the designer and incorporated in later designs. All yacht designs are a continual balance of hull form and available types of materials, plus the accountants drive to minimise costs to maximise profits."
At the time of the time of poblems with Centaur keels I was still in education and heavily involved in offshore racing on my parent's boat, so problems with cruising boats was of no interest to me and over the past 50 years I had not heard of this problem. Most people know of the problem with Ed Dubois's first design for Westerly, the Griffon, where the angle of the keel sinking into soft mud and the suction pulled one of the keels off as the tide rose. This boat and every early Griffon were strengthend by Westerly, and the construction of all later ones were strengthened whilst being moulded.
I have now read the Buying Guide for the Centaur which is on the Westerly Wiki. https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/f/f6/CENTAUR_PURCHASE_ADVICE.pdf On page 2 this is what is said about the keels.
"Check for leaks aroundthe keel studs.The nutsmay need re-sealing or the keels rebedding. Simply further tightening the nuts on leaking studsis unlikely to rectify the problem and may result in damage.* Sooner or later the keels need rebedding*. Keels that have been neglected and are badly rusted are likely to need this earlier than might otherwise have been the case.* Internally, check for damage to the GRP keel stub webs (the internal stiffening around the keel stubs). The Centaur has a wide chord (widely splayed keels), making the roots of the keels stubs vulnerable to cracking if the boat is bumped on hard ground.* "
*This item has been covered by material in the Westerly Owners’ Association Magazine. See the members’area of the website.

Refueler responded in post #66
"Centaurs - you had to measure the keel to hull angle. Second check inside at the actaul bolts and large washers used. An owner could in fact go years with a problem not knowing ... literally. "
So this clarifies that it was not that major a problem compared to the Bavaria Match, which were a fin keel not a bilge keel. Bilge keel boats are designed for regular grounding. That is a huge difference as fin keeled boats rarely dry out, where as many bilge keel boats gound twice a day in all weathers. This short video shows how weak the Bavaria keel was.

I replied to your post #60 with this post #67
"Sorry another comment without foundation. Yes it did cost to repair the Griffins, not Centaurs. The real reason was Westerly had bought the freehold of their premises on a £2M overdraft in 1979 . They went to Boot in January 1980 with a wide range of boats including the recently released Griffin and the brand new Fulmar. They had full order books due to most European dealers having lots of forward orders. Unfortunately the exchange rate moved against the Pound and made continental boats 25% cheaper. At Boot they did not take any orders and all forward orders from their dealers were cancelled. When the bank heard of this, they recalled the overdraft. All that could happen for the company was to go into administration. Most of the staff were sacked and a few staff kept on to complete all existing orders. During administration, the company remained profitable making it possible for it to be sold as a going concern into a new company. This was told to me a couple of years ago by the managing director of Westerly at the time of the collapse. "

Resolution responded in post #75
"That's pretty much the story I was told by a forumite who was working for them at the time. He may be on shortly to confirm or expand in detail."
Need I say any more.

Refueler commented in post #79
"Fair enough - from one of those who helped the collapse ... it leaves out the history of repeated change of management / backing that Westerly suffered ... each taking their toll ... I had many friends working there who lost out ... a very loyal bunch of workers. Locally long before final collapse was a topic of conversations.
As to Centaurs - many most certainly had extra rovings put in by owners- not by Westerly. Years ago - it was a common discussion to be heard let alone knowing many who had it done. I know of various Konsort owners who did similar as well."
Again this only affected bilge keel Konsorts, but I do not know of any keels being lost, but I am not an expert on Konsort history. There is no mention of this problem in the Westerly Wiki, so it may be owners just being careful and undertaking the work due to over zealous surveyors saying it needs doing (not an unknown event).

anoccassionalyachtsman joined the conversation in post #82 responding to your post #54 and Refueler in post #61
"The Riviera was late eighties - 'fraid I can't remember what might have been in (expensive) development back then. "

Also in your post #54
"Bavarias generally are thoroughly sound boats, designed properly and built to exacting standards thanks to extensive automation. "
You are describing a fairly modern yacht, of which the manufacturer has had keel problems that you admit. In the previous decades, Westerly, could using your words be described, "generally are thoroughly sound boats, designed properly and built to exacting standards"

So from all of the comments it looks more like you are the one making false statements and if you do not being publically corrected, then follow your own advice from your post above.
"If you're unhappy with some of my posts, I'm not sure what to suggest. You could add me to your "Ignore" list. Or just accept that not everyone will agree."

Final point. You have made over 37,500 posts since 2001. Yet I have only made just over 2,000 posts since 2014, but I have been awarded a trophy for having over 25 likes and shows as a green marker at the bottom of my avata. For such a prolific poster where is yours?

I repeat my comment from post #25 from this thread.
"pvb, I have always found your posts interesting and generally useful, however this thread and "Is it just me or are all modern boats completely horrible ?" has changed my opinion of you. I try to be constructive and informative with my posts and I rarely post critical comments. I have now been critical of two of your posts and liked several other posts that have been critical of you. This post is to show there are definitely more than two who disagree with your comments. This does not mean that if we met in person that we could not be civil and have a friendly conversation. "
 
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Concerto said:
Final point. You have made over 37,500 posts since 2001. Yet I have only made just over 2,000 posts since 2014, but I have been awarded a trophy for having over 25 likes and shows as a green marker at the bottom of my avata. For such a prolific poster where is yours?
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The green mark at the bottom of your avatar shows whether you are online, that's all. You can switch this off in your account preferences (as I have).

I'm pleased that you have received a trophy for having over 25 likes. So have I, you can check by looking at my profile and clicking on the "About" link.

Perhaps, if and when you've received as many messages of thanks over the years for your help as I have, you'll realise that these forums are generally positive and helpful, not a platform for petty vindictiveness.
 
pvb said:
The green mark at the bottom of your avatar shows whether you are online, that's all. You can switch this off in your account preferences (as I have).

I'm pleased that you have received a trophy for having over 25 likes. So have I, you can check by looking at my profile and clicking on the "About" link.

Perhaps, if and when you've received as many messages of thanks over the years for your help as I have, you'll realise that these forums are generally positive and helpful, not a platform for petty vindictiveness.
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Wow, is that your only comment after such a long post. I suggest we call this matter closed and move on to more friendly conversations.
 
Concerto said:
Wow, is that your only comment after such a long post. I suggest we call this matter closed and move on to more friendly conversations.
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I imagine, like me, PVB the rest of the ECF looked at your loooooooooong post and wondered what a thread on another forum had to do with this thread.

What have Bav keels to do with PoH being for sale ?

Looks like a long rant and some extremely childish comments about forum trophies.

Not really what we have come to expect of the ECF, is it ?
 
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