Old world cruiser or newer ship

[Scolly]

You said long voyages. Unless you mean crossing the Channel when you can get a nice forecast then a long voyage might be several days at sea. Crossing an ocean could be a few weeks. Your risk of bad weather increases as you are out of forecast range. So you fat ass marina boat is now in some nasty seas. Your low ballast and flat bottom caravan that was nice for a romp across the Channel in perfect weather is suddenly is having to deal with large breaking waves and cross swells. The spacious marina entertainment cockpit provides no shelter from the elements. You are in full oilies getting a drenching and the boat motion is terrible. You go down below to make a cup of tea and you are thrown across the saloon cos there are no handholds. The motion is so bad down below you can't make the tea or your are going to burn yourself.
You are going to windward, not ideal but there are times even as a long distance cruising boat that you do it cos the forecast is wrong. The boat is slamming badly. Every gust and squall sees you griping up to windward. Too much sail and the rudder loses grip and you have to dump the main. Too little sail and you can't punch through the seas. You start the engine but the boat is being thrown over so far in the gust that you are exceeding the maximum angle the engine will operate at so you have to turn it off. You decide to run downwind but the boat is surfing wildly with hardly any sail. It takes all your concentration to steer the boat as the autopilot won't cope. There is only you and the wife onboard. If this goes on much longer what are you going to do. This is reality my friend. If you want to do long voyages and not experience at least some of these attributes, get a boat designed for it. The modern crop Bens, Jens, Bavs, etc are not optimised for this kind of sailing.

Never in the field of of human communication has so much garbage been spouted by so few to so many

I guess you haven't had a wander round marina's in what you say is your location. Last time I was in St Lucia spotted more than one of the boats you ridicule. Not sure they were all shipped over....

 

[PHN]

The boat is slamming badly. Every gust and squall sees you griping up to windward. Too much sail and the rudder loses grip and you have to dump the main. Too little sail and you can't punch through the seas. You start the engine but the boat is being thrown over so far in the gust that you are exceeding the maximum angle the engine will operate at so you have to turn it off. You decide to run downwind but the boat is surfing wildly with hardly any sail. It takes all your concentration to steer the boat as the autopilot won't cope.

From my experience the reality of life is that situations like these usually don't last for weeks on end, unless you are in the roaring forties or so (been there, done that) and even then ... Everywhere in the world you can get some kind of weather forecast and good seamanship also includes to anticipate on a weather forecast and try to evade bad weather.

If worst comes to worst instead of starting the engine bare pole sailing down wind using some kind of drogue or heaving to (without ending up perpendicular to the waves) would in my opinion be the best way to survive the situation until the weather becomes manageable again.

 

[Tranona]

Never in the field of of human communication has so much garbage been spouted by so few to so many

I guess you haven't had a wander round marina's in what you say is your location. Last time I was in St Lucia spotted more than one of the boats you ridicule. Not sure they were all shipped over....

Yes, he seems blind to all the boats he ridicules that have safely sailed all round the world. One wonders how the skippers (and their crews) manage it if it is so awful.

There is absolutely no point in trying to engage with people who are so blinkered.

 

[shaunksb]

Everywhere in the world you can get some kind of weather forecast and good seamanship also includes to anticipate on a weather forecast and try to evade bad weather.
.

Which leads me to ask why you want a boat suitable for a F9 for a trip around Ireland?

___________________________

 

[PHN]

Which leads me to ask why you want a boat suitable for a F9 for a trip around Ireland?

___________________________

The story is a little bigger than only a trip to Ireland. Just to draw a picture I take F9 in W Ireland as an example. If it can be done that doesn't mean it must be done. However "can" is imperative for my specs. And yes I have been in weather like that in W. Ireland which was manageable and not a surprise in that particular situation.

 

[fredrussell]

You said long voyages. Unless you mean crossing the Channel when you can get a nice forecast then a long voyage might be several days at sea. Crossing an ocean could be a few weeks. Your risk of bad weather increases as you are out of forecast range. So you fat ass marina boat is now in some nasty seas. Your low ballast and flat bottom caravan that was nice for a romp across the Channel in perfect weather is suddenly is having to deal with large breaking waves and cross swells. The spacious marina entertainment cockpit provides no shelter from the elements. You are in full oilies getting a drenching and the boat motion is terrible. You go down below to make a cup of tea and you are thrown across the saloon cos there are no handholds. The motion is so bad down below you can't make the tea or your are going to burn yourself.
You are going to windward, not ideal but there are times even as a long distance cruising boat that you do it cos the forecast is wrong. The boat is slamming badly. Every gust and squall sees you griping up to windward. Too much sail and the rudder loses grip and you have to dump the main. Too little sail and you can't punch through the seas. You start the engine but the boat is being thrown over so far in the gust that you are exceeding the maximum angle the engine will operate at so you have to turn it off. You decide to run downwind but the boat is surfing wildly with hardly any sail. It takes all your concentration to steer the boat as the autopilot won't cope. There is only you and the wife onboard. If this goes on much longer what are you going to do. This is reality my friend. If you want to do long voyages and not experience at least some of these attributes, get a boat designed for it. The modern crop Bens, Jens, Bavs, etc are not optimised for this kind of sailing.

You forgot to mention the giant squid that has its tentacles wrapped around your boat trying to drag it down to the inky depths. Modern boats don’t have a suitable harpoon storage rack on deck, it’s an absolute nightmare.

 

[RupertW]

You said long voyages. Unless you mean crossing the Channel when you can get a nice forecast then a long voyage might be several days at sea. Crossing an ocean could be a few weeks. Your risk of bad weather increases as you are out of forecast range. So you fat ass marina boat is now in some nasty seas. Your low ballast and flat bottom caravan that was nice for a romp across the Channel in perfect weather is suddenly is having to deal with large breaking waves and cross swells. The spacious marina entertainment cockpit provides no shelter from the elements. You are in full oilies getting a drenching and the boat motion is terrible. You go down below to make a cup of tea and you are thrown across the saloon cos there are no handholds. The motion is so bad down below you can't make the tea or your are going to burn yourself.
You are going to windward, not ideal but there are times even as a long distance cruising boat that you do it cos the forecast is wrong. The boat is slamming badly. Every gust and squall sees you griping up to windward. Too much sail and the rudder loses grip and you have to dump the main. Too little sail and you can't punch through the seas. You start the engine but the boat is being thrown over so far in the gust that you are exceeding the maximum angle the engine will operate at so you have to turn it off. You decide to run downwind but the boat is surfing wildly with hardly any sail. It takes all your concentration to steer the boat as the autopilot won't cope. There is only you and the wife onboard. If this goes on much longer what are you going to do. This is reality my friend. If you want to do long voyages and not experience at least some of these attributes, get a boat designed for it. The modern crop Bens, Jens, Bavs, etc are not optimised for this kind of sailing.

That is a perfect troll post guaranteed to get those with ocean experience of modern fuming at its ignorance and the inexperienced nodding in agreement at their prejudices so neatly laid out.

I would like to do a parody about the extra days you would spend in a cold damp tunnel sailing a mouldy British brick across any distance, and their complete lack of respect and value outside the UK, but I can't because I enjoy the very different benefits of MABs, although I'd never own one if I wanted the option of long distance sails.

 

[geem]

Yes, he seems blind to all the boats he ridicules that have safely sailed all round the world. One wonders how the skippers (and their crews) manage it if it is so awful.

There is absolutely no point in trying to engage with people who are so blinkered.

You are always quick to point out the attributes of modern boats for sailing around the world but you haven't ever crossed an ocean in one so how does your opinion count?

 

[geem]

You forgot to mention the giant squid that has its tentacles wrapped around your boat trying to drag it down to the inky depths. Modern boats don’t have a suitable harpoon storage rack on deck, it’s an absolute nightmare.

Well that's useful information for a discussion. That will help people make the right decision......

 

[geem]

That is a perfect troll post guaranteed to get those with ocean experience of modern fuming at its ignorance and the inexperienced nodding in agreement at their prejudices so neatly laid out.

I would like to do a parody about the extra days you would spend in a cold damp tunnel sailing a mouldy British brick across any distance, and their complete lack of respect and value outside the UK, but I can't because I enjoy the very different benefits of MABs, although I'd never own one if I wanted the option of long distance sails.

It's nice to see so many responses with grown up attitudes actually giving detailed accounts of how their modern boat sails in tough conditions. Not see one useful response yet.

 

[geem]

To be clear, my comments were made in response to this comment 'the design of new boats is tested and optimised in every way using computer modelling and should therefore be nicely "tuned" for long voyages.'
If you can tell me how Ben, Jen, Bav do this in their current crop of designs I will be delighted to be proved wrong. It doesn't matter how many cross oceans, being 'optimised' for this kind of sailing certainly doesn't fit with my view of these boats.

 

[flaming]

To be clear, my comments were made in response to this comment 'the design of new boats is tested and optimised in every way using computer modelling and should therefore be nicely "tuned" for long voyages.'
If you can tell me how Ben, Jen, Bav do this in their current crop of designs I will be delighted to be proved wrong. It doesn't matter how many cross oceans, being 'optimised' for this kind of sailing certainly doesn't fit with my view of these boats.

Would "being optimised for long distance cruising" fit your view of boats such as the Pogo 12.50, JPK45 and a bunch of other modern boats designed specifically with ocean cruising in mind but based on "open 60" type thinking?

 

[RupertW]

It's nice to see so many responses with grown up attitudes actually giving detailed accounts of how their modern boat sails in tough conditions. Not see one useful response yet.

Well I can try one or two but the trouble is that tough conditions don’t seem so tough in a modern boat as they are drier and higher so the waves don’t seem so overwhelming. And the trips are shorter.

But as you ask, there are often 20-40 knot winds in Northern Aegean with a 90 mile fetch down to the Sporades from our base then, so at the end of each weeks sailing we’d have a 60 mile slog mostly in one tack against unusually unpleasant confused seas for the Med. With double reefed main and Genoa and a dawn start we’d be home for supper after the autohelm did it’s job while we read, did emails and had a nice lunch in the cockpit with a slam perhaps twice an hour. No drama.

Nasty rain squalls a lot this Summer on some of our 2 night, 3 day passages with the Bimini keeping the worst off but did need to put a jacket on twice as a little chilly and reefed the main down and rolled Genoa in and out to match 15-35 knot wind changes.

Worst conditions this Summer were a 2 nighter from South Saardinia to Mallorca where we were close reaching most of the time into a sea state caused by 300 mile fetch from 4 days of Force 9 from the Gulf of Lyons added to by the current 12-35 knot wind from a 30 degree different angle plus some towering squalls on the second day with the widest waterspout I’ve yet seen forming in front and upwind of us. As always the 2 of us were fine the whole trip although I admit didn’t enjoy washing up after the hot meals cooked fresh by my wife - cabin is designed perfectly for hands free stability when pitching and rolling together but my stomach is less tolerant.

All in all a modern boat workng and under control short handed with little fuss once I’d unlearned the MAB lessons and concentrated on Genoa to drive and main for light and upwind conditions only.

And I have crossed the Altantic in a modern boat out of normal tradewind season so thunderstorms most nights of the La Rochelle to Fort Lauderdale trip but the Med is tougher than any part of that apart from South Biscay and a 56 knot gust on a 40 plus average.

If I was thinking of South Atlantic or polar sailing then of course I would be sailing alone as my wife would not be keen and would soon persuade me to sense.

 

[geem]

Well I can try one or two but the trouble is that tough conditions don’t seem so tough in a modern boat as they are drier and higher so the waves don’t seem so overwhelming. And the trips are shorter.

But as you ask, there are often 20-40 knot winds in Northern Aegean with a 90 mile fetch down to the Sporades from our base then, so at the end of each weeks sailing we’d have a 60 mile slog mostly in one tack against unusually unpleasant confused seas for the Med. With double reefed main and Genoa and a dawn start we’d be home for supper after the autohelm did it’s job while we read, did emails and had a nice lunch in the cockpit with a slam perhaps twice an hour. No drama.

Nasty rain squalls a lot this Summer on some of our 2 night, 3 day passages with the Bimini keeping the worst off but did need to put a jacket on twice as a little chilly and reefed the main down and rolled Genoa in and out to match 15-35 knot wind changes.

Worst conditions this Summer were a 2 nighter from South Saardinia to Mallorca where we were close reaching most of the time into a sea state caused by 300 mile fetch from 4 days of Force 9 from the Gulf of Lyons added to by the current 12-35 knot wind from a 30 degree different angle plus some towering squalls on the second day with the widest waterspout I’ve yet seen forming in front and upwind of us. As always the 2 of us were fine the whole trip although I admit didn’t enjoy washing up after the hot meals cooked fresh by my wife - cabin is designed perfectly for hands free stability when pitching and rolling together but my stomach is less tolerant.

All in all a modern boat workng and under control short handed with little fuss once I’d unlearned the MAB lessons and concentrated on Genoa to drive and main for light and upwind conditions only.

And I have crossed the Altantic in a modern boat out of normal tradewind season so thunderstorms most nights of the La Rochelle to Fort Lauderdale trip but the Med is tougher than any part of that apart from South Biscay and a 56 knot gust on a 40 plus average.

If I was thinking of South Atlantic or polar sailing then of course I would be sailing alone as my wife would not be keen and would soon persuade me to sense.

You don't mention this marvellous boats builder? Jen, Bav or Ben?

 

[dom]

Would "being optimised for long distance cruising" fit your view of boats such as the Pogo 12.50, JPK45 and a bunch of other modern boats designed specifically with ocean cruising in mind but based on "open 60" type thinking?

Just another fat-arsed, flimsy, French piece of rubbish totally unsuitable for ocean crossings. And it's pig ugly.

The cold logic is this: it is an AWB and all AWBs are crap. The Pogo 12.5 is white (I'd least I bet it is beneath those yellow and other disguises - I know an AWB when I see one), so it's a piece of garbage warmed up, end of story.

And there's no good saying that it's fast enough to weather route, marvellous fun downhill, explosive on a reach, comfortable, got two waterproof crash compartments (prob because it's built flimsy), boasts an AVS of 130 degrees cos all the ballast is down low, and looks kinda cool if one is honest.

In fact, if I were to be really honest it is achingly more desirable than decaying MABs. But it’s still rubbish, French, and I bet it smells of garlic

 

[geem]

Would "being optimised for long distance cruising" fit your view of boats such as the Pogo 12.50, JPK45 and a bunch of other modern boats designed specifically with ocean cruising in mind but based on "open 60" type thinking?

I specifically said Ben, Bav or Jen. There are plenty of modern designs by other manufacturers that are suitable in some people's minds. A Pogo is not run of the mill AWB is it

 

[flaming]

I specifically said Ben, Bav or Jen. There are plenty of modern designs by other manufacturers that are suitable in some people's minds. A Pogo is not run of the mill AWB is it

Ah, so it's possible to have a suitably seaworthy lightweight modern, wide sterned boat then? Just some manufacturers that you don't like?

 

[RupertW]

You don't mention this marvellous boats builder? Jen, Bav or Ben?

It's not a marvellous boat, that would be out of my range. It's a bog standard ex-charter boat - a Jeaneau Sun Odyssey 42.2 from 1999. Sails like everybody else's - fine, but maybe a bit slow compared to anything built in the last 10 years.

It just does the job - sailing is not that hard.

 

[geem]

It's not a marvellous boat, that would be out of my range. It's a bog standard ex-charter boat - a Jeaneau Sun Odyssey 42.2 from 1999. Sails like everybody else's - fine, but maybe a bit slow compared to anything built in the last 10 years.

It just does the job - sailing is not that hard.

Great! So which bit of the design is optimised for long distance sailing?

 

[geem]

Ah, so it's possible to have a suitably seaworthy lightweight modern, wide sterned boat then? Just some manufacturers that you don't like?

If, you want to sail a Pogo around the oceans of the world that up to you. People sail all sorts of boats. If you have a go at reading what I have said instead of responding to something else then prephaps you can tell me which aspect of the Pogo is 'optimised' for long distance cruising? I know a guy who did cruise one but he kept it race light or it was a pig. Said it was great in rough weather but he had to keep it light. Not sure cruising oceans with minimal provisions is every cruisers idea of heaven.