Old world cruiser or newer ship

[RupertW]

Not my contention - but the comfort at sea above and below decks and height of cockpit seating and freeboard and the generally higher speeds make it easy for thousands of couples to do long or short distances pretty much anywhere that cruising exists.

And of course the walkthrough sterns, two bathrooms and multiple private cabins are lovely all those times you are not out at sea but enjoying an anchorage or harbour wall.

I know you really really don’t want to learn that they work better for oceans and marina cruising than older heavier boats so don’t want to perusade you but I would worry if anybody new to sailing read this thread and thought you might be right.

 

[Kukri]

Eau D'Hier:

Il n'ya pas de Cockpit Table:



ni les His and Hers roues des gouvernails:

 

[dom]

It's not a marvellous boat, that would be out of my range....

It just does the job - sailing is not that hard.

A voice of pragmatism and good sense

I know a guy who did cruise one but he kept it race light or it was a pig.

Ahh the old “I once met a bloke” wheeze to trump Groupe Finot and the European Boat of the Year judges

 

[Tranona]

You are always quick to point out the attributes of modern boats for sailing around the world but you haven't ever crossed an ocean in one so how does your opinion count?

I do not give "opinions". My comments are based always on "statistics" - that is the huge (and increasing) number of boats of the types you dismiss that DO cross oceans.

You just seem to ignore these or prefer to remain ignorant of facts that contradict your own views.

You are right to make a case for why you prefer the type of boat you have if it makes you feel superior, but you have to recognise that you are in a shrinking minority.

There are very sound reasons why boats like yours have not been made in any volume for 30 years or more (and in fact were never made in volume). If they are as superior as you claim they would still be made, but it is clear that those who have the money to buy new(er) boats prefer something different.

 

[geem]

Not my contention - but the comfort at sea above and below decks and height of cockpit seating and freeboard and the generally higher speeds make it easy for thousands of couples to do long or short distances pretty much anywhere that cruising exists.

And of course the walkthrough sterns, two bathrooms and multiple private cabins are lovely all those times you are not out at sea but enjoying an anchorage or harbour wall.

I know you really really don’t want to learn that they work better for oceans and marina cruising than older heavier boats so don’t want to perusade you but I would worry if anybody new to sailing read this thread and thought you might be right.

Haha, we share the same worry. That people reading this would think the only answer is to buy a new boat! Not all old boats are the same. Swans, Rassys, Trintellas. Not really MABs. Your Jen is certainly no faster than my Trintella. We regularly outpace more modern designs whilst cruising under autopilot, reading our kindles and drinking tea. We don't race past these boats, we simply sail past. Our freeboard is higher, our ride is drier, but it's not about comparison. The point was that modern AWB production designs are not optimised for long distance sailing. Yours was optimised as a charter boat. You say so yourself. Charter boats don't routinely sail across oceans! Of course the boat will do it. People have been across on far less optimised boats. The point is, which aspect of modern production boat building is optimised for long distance sailing? You tell me. My view is that a long distance sailing boat ideally needs a robust hull and keel configuration, straight spreaders not swept back, Shelter in the cockpit for when the weather is poor, a sea kindly motion, large tankage, lots of space for provisions, good sized deck lockers for wet stuff, good sea berth for off watch crew, a hull that doesn't slam so the off watch crew can sleep, a galley that works at seas. I could go on, but you get the idea. In my view, a boat that does these things is optimised for long distance sailing

 

[geem]

I do not give "opinions". My comments are based always on "statistics" - that is the huge (and increasing) number of boats of the types you dismiss that DO cross oceans.

You just seem to ignore these or prefer to remain ignorant of facts that contradict your own views.

You are right to make a case for why you prefer the type of boat you have if it makes you feel superior, but you have to recognise that you are in a shrinking minority.

There are very sound reasons why boats like yours have not been made in any volume for 30 years or more (and in fact were never made in volume). If they are as superior as you claim they would still be made, but it is clear that those who have the money to buy new(er) boats prefer something different.

Haha, I could easily have afforded to buy a new boat of the same size as mine. Money wasn't the issue. I retired at 51 to go sailing. If you read my last post you will see that a basic list of priorities don't exist in the AWB of the size I wanted. The reason they don't make them like mine anymore is nobody could afford to buy them. People's arguement these days 'is look at the size of this new boat for the money'. New boats are relatively cheap. They seem attractive. If you are willing to accept the compromises then go ahead, buy a new boat and sail across the oceans. Plenty do. The fact that they are not optimised for the job is obvious to lots of people who are out there doing it. You might have a different view if you actually had done some long distance sailing.

 

[Kukri]

Haha, we share the same worry. That people reading this would think the only answer is to buy a new boat! Not all old boats are the same. Swans, Rassys, Trintellas. Not really MABs. Your Jen is certainly no faster than my Trintella. We regularly outpace more modern designs whilst cruising under autopilot, reading our kindles and drinking tea. We don't race past these boats, we simply sail past. Our freeboard is higher, our ride is drier, but it's not about comparison. The point was that modern AWB production designs are not optimised for long distance sailing. Yours was optimised as a charter boat. You say so yourself. Charter boats don't routinely sail across oceans! Of course the boat will do it. People have been across on far less optimised boats. The point is, which aspect of modern production boat building is optimised for long distance sailing? You tell me. My view is that a long distance sailing boat ideally needs a robust hull and keel configuration, straight spreaders not swept back, Shelter in the cockpit for when the weather is poor, a sea kindly motion, large tankage, lots of space for provisions, good sized deck lockers for wet stuff, good sea berth for off watch crew, a hull that doesn't slam so the off watch crew can sleep, a galley that works at seas. I could go on, but you get the idea. In my view, a boat that does these things is optimised for long distance sailing

I think we tick all those boxes. But it would be entirely safe to say that were this boat built today, 43 years after she was built, there is no possible way that I could have afforded her.



When we were looking round her, I remarked on the waste of space in the foreground. No. 1 son replied "Dad, that's where you stand to put your oilskins on before going on watch - full standing headroom, wet locker to starboard, and you can brace yourself in every direction!"

And we found that he was right!

 

[GHA]

Yes, he seems blind to all the boats he ridicules that have safely sailed all round the world. One wonders how the skippers (and their crews) manage it if it is so awful.

There is absolutely no point in trying to engage with people who are so blinkered.

He's bang on the money about lack of hand holds and big cockpits designed for sipping Pims not crossing oceans though

 

[Tranona]

Haha, I could easily have afforded to buy a new boat of the same size as mine. Money wasn't the issue. I retired at 51 to go sailing. If you read my last post you will see that a basic list of priorities don't exist in the AWB of the size I wanted. The reason they don't make them like mine anymore is nobody could afford to buy them. People's arguement these days 'is look at the size of this new boat for the money'. New boats are relatively cheap. They seem attractive. If you are willing to accept the compromises then go ahead, buy a new boat and sail across the oceans. Plenty do. The fact that they are not optimised for the job is obvious to lots of people who are out there doing it. You might have a different view if you actually had done some long distance sailing.

Don't think your argument holds water. People will still pay the money - they just don't want the kind of boat that you prefer. A similar size boat from HR or Discovery for example will cost at least £750k, which would be more than enough to build a one off to the same design as yours.

You seem to have difficulty accepting that other peoples' views of what is suitable for their requirements is different from yours and is no way inferior.

When it gets to a different sector of the market with the mass produced boats, while they may not meet the ideal the buyers would like to buy - because they can't afford it and still have a new (or newish) boat, they find such boats perfectly adequate. They may not be ideal for permanent liveaboards, nor for extreme conditions, may not be comfortable in some situations and perhaps not as robust over time, but they do the job and safely convey their owners and crew over long distances.

It seems that you only look at life through your own eyes and what suits you, sometimes bringing in other like minded minorities in support but are unwilling to accept that others see things differently.

Just (hopefully) to show that my approach to advice is different, suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread (Post#2) and see what my suggestion for the OP was.

Choices of boat (and indeed any consumer product) starts from the buyer's expectations, not those of another person. Of course one takes note of that others buy, but it is wise to reject advice if it does not accord with your expectations.

 

[Tranona]

He's bang on the money about lack of hand holds and big cockpits designed for sipping Pims not crossing oceans though

Handholds are easily dealt with - just made and added 2 on my boat! As to Pimms, don't like it myself but you do have to consider what you do when you arrive in your perfect tropical bay, or indeed in all the 80% of the time that is commonly said to be the proportion of time spent at anchor rather than sailing!

 

[dom]

....The reason they don't make them like mine anymore is nobody could afford to buy them.

Nobody, Golly

 

[GHA]

Handholds are easily dealt with - just made and added 2 on my boat! As to Pimms, don't like it myself but you do have to consider what you do when you arrive in your perfect tropical bay, or indeed in all the 80% of the time that is commonly said to be the proportion of time spent at anchor rather than sailing!

Isn't that what the chat is about - modern production boats simply aren't designed for ocean sailing, otherwise all the bits you need to add would be there in the first place.

Same for cockpits - big open spaces are great for entertaining but not a good idea for ocean sailing, saying "but most of the time is on the hook" doesn't change that.

 

[Skylark]

I don’t have the wealth of experience as enjoyed by some of the posters so please put my two pennies worth in that context.

I’ve done two ocean passages and these account for less than 10% of my total logged mileage/days aboard. On both occasions the passages were made when, statistically, the prevailing weather would be fair. It was on the first but we had some headwinds on the second, no more than F6. The AWBs were comfortable enough.

My other 90% has been either coastal crusing or caravaning in a marina. My AWB has an enormous fat arse, twin wheels etc etc. For 90% of the time it is just perfect for my sailing aspirations. I’ve been caught in relatively heavy seas once or twice and the boat performed admirably. Nothing like the tale of woe offered by some posters.

There are some really nice looking MAB and I’m a great admirer of their style and have great respect for the miles under their keels. But, not for me, I’ll keep my AWB every day. An ocean cruiser live aboard lifestyle is not for me, either.

 

[RupertW]

Haha, we share the same worry. That people reading this would think the only answer is to buy a new boat! Not all old boats are the same. Swans, Rassys, Trintellas. Not really MABs. Your Jen is certainly no faster than my Trintella. We regularly outpace more modern designs whilst cruising under autopilot, reading our kindles and drinking tea. We don't race past these boats, we simply sail past. Our freeboard is higher, our ride is drier, but it's not about comparison. The point was that modern AWB production designs are not optimised for long distance sailing. Yours was optimised as a charter boat. You say so yourself. Charter boats don't routinely sail across oceans! Of course the boat will do it. People have been across on far less optimised boats. The point is, which aspect of modern production boat building is optimised for long distance sailing? You tell me. My view is that a long distance sailing boat ideally needs a robust hull and keel configuration, straight spreaders not swept back, Shelter in the cockpit for when the weather is poor, a sea kindly motion, large tankage, lots of space for provisions, good sized deck lockers for wet stuff, good sea berth for off watch crew, a hull that doesn't slam so the off watch crew can sleep, a galley that works at seas. I could go on, but you get the idea. In my view, a boat that does these things is optimised for long distance sailing

Apart from the straight spreaders I think ours ticks those boxes

 

[geem]

Apart from the straight spreaders I think ours ticks those boxes

Great! Older boats had these attributes but they seem to disappear on the newer designs.

 

[Kukri]

It all comes down to keeping up with the maintenance.

 

[Daydream believer]

What a load of nonsense!! Most modern boats are designed to sit in marinas.... fat sterns, flat hulls, twin wheels, low ballast ratios, short rudders, tiny deck gear, bolt on keels. You have got to be kidding!! The only thing optimised on modern boats is to extract cash from you for an inferior product. Dream on.......

----------------------------- Short rudders ? do you know what manufacturer quotes this in their website -------------------------------------------------"TWIN RUDDERS --------------The rudder arrangement, like the successful ************* 44, has twin rudder blades. This provides an easily controlled boat during all sailing conditions, especially in tough weather. Because of the reduced rudder surface, compared to a single rudder solution, the rudder loads will also decrease which will increase the safety factor. Each rudder has dual self-adjusting rudder bearings that provides an easy to steer rudder construction in all conditions". As for their 34 you might note that they now have twin wheels !! Oh the keel is bolted on as well. As is the keel on many so called blue water cruisers.................. Sorry cannot edit with paragraphs anymore

 

[Tranona]

Isn't that what the chat is about - modern production boats simply aren't designed for ocean sailing, otherwise all the bits you need to add would be there in the first place.

Same for cockpits - big open spaces are great for entertaining but not a good idea for ocean sailing, saying "but most of the time is on the hook" doesn't change that.

Was slightly tongue in cheek.

However, despite what you say, many people do just buy off the shelf boats, carry out minimal mods and sail off into the sunset.

The reality is that very few boats are specifically built for ocean sailing simply because the market is small, at least for those with enough money to have one built. So the vast majority use production boats of some type or another, usually adding or changing what they think is necessary. Interestingly the only "dedicated" ocean sailing production boats in the sub 45' (Ovni and Allures for example) do not follow the old Anglo Saxon model but are much closer in concept to AWBs.

As ever the ARC gives a good indication of trends in boat choice. Production boats from the big 4 plus cats now make up nearly 50% of the entry. I know all the arguments about it being a milk run and stories of boats being shipped back, but the majority of participants go on sailing either cruising out there, sailing back or going into the Pacific.

 

[geem]

Was slightly tongue in cheek.

However, despite what you say, many people do just buy off the shelf boats, carry out minimal mods and sail off into the sunset.

The reality is that very few boats are specifically built for ocean sailing simply because the market is small, at least for those with enough money to have one built. So the vast majority use production boats of some type or another, usually adding or changing what they think is necessary. Interestingly the only "dedicated" ocean sailing production boats in the sub 45' (Ovni and Allures for example) do not follow the old Anglo Saxon model but are much closer in concept to AWBs.

As ever the ARC gives a good indication of trends in boat choice. Production boats from the big 4 plus cats now make up nearly 50% of the entry. I know all the arguments about it being a milk run and stories of boats being shipped back, but the majority of participants go on sailing either cruising out there, sailing back or going into the Pacific.

I don't disagree with much of this except to say you will be surprised how many get shipped back. I have watched boats being loaded in the Caribbean destined for Europe. It may be that the owners always planned to do this but most don't like to publicise that they got a ride home.
It was only the 'modern boats are optimised for long distance sailing' that I dispute. I wouldn't choose a modern production boat for the life we currently live and it's nothing to do with money. A well engineered and robustly designed boat is what works for this lifestyle whether it's new or old.

 

[dom]

Great! Older boats had these attributes but they seem to disappear on the newer designs.

Care to explain why in-line spreaders are better?

Let me guess, you sail an older boat with a trim-tab mainsail and biggish genoa, both made from dacron? Modern more efficient and aerodynamic rigs tend to have the mast further forward with much bigger mainsails, often made of laminate sails. A fractional rig allows more control, a more accurate setting of the centre of effort and consequently a smoother and much faster ride.

Not that I’m criticising older boats, I like many a lot, but it is foolish to deride this kind of progress. Unless you happen to sail in British Columbia of course