Old world cruiser or newer ship

[geem]

Care to explain why in-line spreaders are better?

Let me guess, you sail an older boat with a trim-tab mainsail and biggish genoa, both made from dacron? Modern more efficient and aerodynamic rigs tend to have the mast further forward with much bigger mainsails, often made of laminate sails. A fractional rig allows more control, a more accurate setting of the centre of effort and consequently a smoother and much faster ride.

Not that I’m criticising older boats, I like many a lot, but it is foolish to deride this kind of progress. Unless you happen to sail in British Columbia of course

Most oceangoing cruisers tend to opt for good old fashioned Dacron for longevity and ease of repair. Doyle give a 5year or 50,000 no warranty on their Dacron sails for good reason. They last well so get very few claims. When sailing in the trades dead downwind the main sail will be fully out. This is possible with minimal chafe on straight spreaders but not with swept back spreaders. You can't even get the main right out on the yachts with extreme swept back spreaders.
I once had laminates sails but when the genoa failed mid -Atlantic I vowed never again as repair was very difficult.
We have twin furlers on a mast head rig so plenty of choice of sail area for upwind work. The inner furler uses a blade jib for wind over the deck of greater than 20 knts when going up wind so we are pretty efficient in that department.
Mainsail is fully battened with cars on all attachment point so low friction and easy to reef. Mizzen is also fully battened high roach sail.
I have no idea what a 'trim tab mainsail is'

 

[shaunksb]

Nobody, Golly

No his username is geem.

Anyways the answer to the OP’s question has to be a Rival 36/38 but he knew that already.

And I think he means F9 winds not F9 sea state...

____________________________

 

[dom]

Most oceangoing cruisers tend to opt for good old fashioned Dacron for longevity and ease of repair. Doyle give a 5year or 50,000 no warranty on their Dacron sails for good reason. They last well so get very few claims. When sailing in the trades dead downwind the main sail will be fully out. This is possible with minimal chafe on straight spreaders but not with swept back spreaders. You can't even get the main right out on the yachts with extreme swept back spreaders.I once had laminates sails but when the genoa failed mid -Atlantic I vowed never again as repair was very difficult. We have twin furlers on a mast head rig so plenty of choice of sail area for upwind work. The inner furler uses a blade jib for wind over the deck of greater than 20 knts when going up wind so we are pretty efficient in that department.Mainsail is fully battened with cars on all attachment point so low friction and easy to reef. Mizzen is also fully battened high roach sail. I have no idea what a 'trim tab mainsail is'

A trim-tab main is a common term for a mainsail which is smaller than aerodynamically efficient, a feature of older designs where fashion followed old racing designs. As a matter of interest what is your mainsail size compared to your length and displacement? It's true that a mainsail will lie against swept spreaders but this can easily be solved with chafe patches and in any event, few boats are comfortable to sail dead downwind.

Re your point on laminate sails: you're a bit out of date there I'm afraid. Laminates come in many shapes and sizes and most of the RoW races restrict the sail wardrobe and there is a big penalty for replacing blown-out sails even in the Volvo. A full suss around the world race inc. the Southern Ocean is a bigger test of sail strength than any cruising boat and the sails are often in surprisingly good nick when the boats get back - I know that for a fact. Dacron is of course just fine on older less adjustable set-ups, for more leisurely sailing, for those on a budget, alongside a host of other valid reasons including chilled out folk who couldn't care less. Rugged offshore superiority just isn't one of them.

 

[PHN]

Just (hopefully) to show that my approach to advice is different, suggest you go back to the beginning of this thread (Post#2) and see what my suggestion for the OP was.

Well ... to get back on track where it all began with my question for a suitable boat...

The Tradewind 35 originally was a 33, has a LOA of 10.67 meters and an LWL of 7.87 meters which makes it too small for my purpose. I am looking for more living space and the LWL should be over 8.5 meters for sufficient hull speed. Boats that I seriously considered were Wauquiez Centurion 36/38, but all that I have seen came with a bunch of issues like leaking teak decks and "some" repairs. Then if you look what the same money (purchase + repair list of the old boat) can buy in newer boats which also happen to be more popular in the market if ever you need to sell it ... then one wonders what is best to do for the same purpose of ocean sailing while maintaining a realistic financial plan. Yes, I know, the best financial plan is not to buy a boat ...

To draw a picture of past sailing trips:

We came accross something at W coast Ireland:

We sailed the Corryvreckan, Scotland making SOG 14.7. You do need to know the details of this location before making such a trip.

Then sailed 80 North. Mooring in ice is not a requirement for my GRP boat.

And of course the pinnacle of sailing: Cape Horn

 

[shaunksb]

To draw a picture of past sailing trips:

That’s all very well but I can’t see any big sea’s there.

Show us a pic of the sort of conditions you want to go out in so we get the idea.

______________________________

 

[geem]

A trim-tab main is a common term for a mainsail which is smaller than aerodynamically efficient, a feature of older designs where fashion followed old racing designs. As a matter of interest what is your mainsail size compared to your length and displacement? It's true that a mainsail will lie against swept spreaders but this can easily be solved with chafe patches and in any event, few boats are comfortable to sail dead downwind.

Re your point on laminate sails: you're a bit out of date there I'm afraid. Laminates come in many shapes and sizes and most of the RoW races restrict the sail wardrobe and there is a big penalty for replacing blown-out sails even in the Volvo. A full suss around the world race inc. the Southern Ocean is a bigger test of sail strength than any cruising boat and the sails are often in surprisingly good nick when the boats get back - I know that for a fact. Dacron is of course just fine on older less adjustable set-ups, for more leisurely sailing, for those on a budget, alongside a host of other valid reasons including chilled out folk who couldn't care less. Rugged offshore superiority just isn't one of them.

So what do think I don't have in adjustability compared to a modern cruiser? These so called modern rigs can't be that good if we keep sailing past them! I don't think we are missing much. FYI the number of laminate sails you see doing long distance sailing is very limited. Might be fine for a racing boat but we are cruising. We are not racing around the cans at weekend

 

[PHN]

That’s all very well but I can’t see any big sea’s there.

Show us a pic of the sort of conditions you want to go out in so we get the idea.

______________________________

Big seas usually don't show as big on pictures as your real life experience and when they become really big you don't have time for pictures .

But below a few pics from movies that I made:

Ireland - the guy on the left was not able to stand up due to the waves:

More Ireland:

And the Southern Ocean on a tall ship to show if my next trip gets extended a little further:

 

[Tranona]

It was only the 'modern boats are optimised for long distance sailing' that I dispute. I wouldn't choose a modern production boat for the life we currently live and it's nothing to do with money. A well engineered and robustly designed boat is what works for this lifestyle whether it's new or old.

Not sure where you have got the idea that I have said that modern boats are optimised for ocean sailing as I have never claimed that - it is you that claims yours is and I don't have any problem with that. Very few boats that are built, either old or newer are actually specifically designed for that purpose simply because the market is too small. Some boats can be developed/modified to improve their suitability more readily than others, but the fact remains that most people of necessity start with a production boat intended for more general cruising.

It is the basic design of boats that has changed and people have adapted to the changes, mainly because there is little alternative but also because newer boats offer qualities that people want. This results in boats that are very different from yours or indeed most boats built more than 30 years ago.

While you (and many others) prefer the qualities of older designs, the majority either don't through choice or don't have the choice. There is nothing you or anybody else can do about this and the reality is that most of these boats perform well in what the owners ask them to do.

Many of your criticisms are wide of the mark as other posters with real life experience have told us. Equally many of what you regard as superior qualities of your type of boat are not valued in the same way by others. How could it be otherwise given the huge variety of boats in use?

You have summed it up nicely - what you have suits you - well done. So, why do you seem to have so much difficulty in accepting that other people find other types of boats suit them perfectly well?

 

[Tranona]

Well ... to get back on track where it all began with my question for a suitable boat...

The Tradewind 35 originally was a 33, has a LOA of 10.67 meters and an LWL of 7.87 meters which makes it too small for my purpose. I am looking for more living space and the LWL should be over 8.5 meters for sufficient hull speed. Boats that I seriously considered were Wauquiez Centurion 36/38, but all that I have seen came with a bunch of issues like leaking teak decks and "some" repairs. Then if you look what the same money (purchase + repair list of the old boat) can buy in newer boats which also happen to be more popular in the market if ever you need to sell it ... then one wonders what is best to do for the same purpose of ocean sailing while maintaining a realistic financial plan. Yes, I know, the best financial plan is not to buy a boat ...

My reason for recommending the Tradewind was because you are going to struggle with your budget to find a decent boat to meet your requirements, particularly performance. In fact I nearly added a proviso that you would need to allow extra time on most passages!

What is attractive about them is that a number of well found boats of the type have changed hands well below your budget and as always it depends on where you are prepared to make compromises in your requirements.

 

[dom]

So what do think I don't have in adjustability compared to a modern cruiser? These so called modern rigs can't be that good if we keep sailing past them! I don't think we are missing much. FYI the number of laminate sails you see doing long distance sailing is very limited. Might be fine for a racing boat but we are cruising. We are not racing around the cans at weekend

A comparably sized modern fast cruiser will leave a boat like yours cleanly in its wake on all points of sailing and a modern racer will leave the fast cruiser cleanly in his. There are of course desirable examples of all, although the latter would be totally usuited to live aboard cruising.

If if you are seriously comparing a Round the World full-suss race with ‘around the cans at weekends’, well I’m struggling to find a better word than delusional.

 

[geem]

A comparably sized modern fast cruiser will leave a boat like yours cleanly in its wake on all points of sailing and a modern racer will leave the fast cruiser cleanly in his. There are of course desirable examples of all, although the latter would be totally usuited to live aboard cruising.

If if you are seriously comparing a Round the World full-suss race with ‘around the cans at weekends’, well I’m struggling to find a better word than delusional.

So would,you consider a Jen 44i as a comparable cruiser to our elderly Trimtella 44? They are the same size and the same draft.
Over a 26nm sail in narly conditions between Antigua and Barbuda a couple of years back we were outpaced. They arrived 5mins before us. They spent plenty of time rounding up in the gusts and hand steering when the autopilot couldn't cope and the boat was pointing into the wind with sails flogging. By comparison our slow boat just leaned to the gusts and carried on arrow straight. We were fairly hard on the wind but we were nice and dry in the cockpit. We suggested drinks with our friends once we arrived n Barbuda but they were too tired after the sail from Antigua. By comparison we were rested and stress free but we had wasted 5 mins of our life........

 

[flaming]

If, you want to sail a Pogo around the oceans of the world that up to you. People sail all sorts of boats. If you have a go at reading what I have said instead of responding to something else then prephaps you can tell me which aspect of the Pogo is 'optimised' for long distance cruising? I know a guy who did cruise one but he kept it race light or it was a pig. Said it was great in rough weather but he had to keep it light. Not sure cruising oceans with minimal provisions is every cruisers idea of heaven.

Throughout this thread you've had a pop at certain design aspects of "modern boats" which include wide sterns, swept back spreaders and laminate sails. You've also said that you are mostly critical of Jen/Ben/Bav...
And I get that. I don't think anyone is (or should be) claiming that a production boat of that ilk is the most suitable long distance cruiser. However for some it's the boat they have, so the boat that lets them go.

But... You see there's this new wave of boats, designed specifically with long distance live-aboard cruising in mind. The Pogo 12.50, JPK45 etc are great examples of them, but there are plenty more examples. And they are wide, have swept back spreaders (and in some cases no backstay at all) and almost always come with laminate sails.

Admittedly they're not at all relevant to the OP, as they are going to be out of budget, but Mr fred Drift has been at play....

The huge difference between these boats and the latest Ben/Jen/Bav creation is that they use the design features appropriately. Wide and light. It's no use being wide with a flat run aft if you're not light, it gives you nothing.
But apparently they're no good as long distance cruisers...?

 

[geem]

Throughout this thread you've had a pop at certain design aspects of "modern boats" which include wide sterns, swept back spreaders and laminate sails. You've also said that you are mostly critical of Jen/Ben/Bav...
And I get that. I don't think anyone is (or should be) claiming that a production boat of that ilk is the most suitable long distance cruiser. However for some it's the boat they have, so the boat that lets them go.

But... You see there's this new wave of boats, designed specifically with long distance live-aboard cruising in mind. The Pogo 12.50, JPK45 etc are great examples of them, but there are plenty more examples. And they are wide, have swept back spreaders (and in some cases no backstay at all) and almost always come with laminate sails.

Admittedly they're not at all relevant to the OP, as they are going to be out of budget, but Mr fred Drift has been at play....

The huge difference between these boats and the latest Ben/Jen/Bav creation is that they use the design features appropriately. Wide and light. It's no use being wide with a flat run aft if you're not light, it gives you nothing.
But apparently they're no good as long distance cruisers...?

I took the trouble to read some of the reviews of the Pogo 12.50. Definitely a high speed machine off the wind. But the owner of such boat in the review said they slammed up wind and were noisy below because of the exstreme flat hull shape. They also cost €220k! If they were a good choice for ocean cruising rather than a high performance racer then more people would be using them. I really like the look of them and I bet they are great fun to sail but would you really choose one for long distance cruising? The answer may be yes but you would be in a minority.
To be clear,
I don't have any difficulty with people's choices of modern off the shelf Bav, Jen, Ben designs for long distance sailing. I only take issue when people on this forum say they are optimised for such a task. Every boat is a compromise. You only have to look at the multitude of designs out sailing in any one place to realise that there are many different choices made by individuals as to what is the right boat for them. A standard production boat will do the job, cheaply. It is one solution for many people. It may not be the best solution given an unlimited budget or given an older design for somebody with the appetite to refurbish and prepare such a boat for long distance sailing.

 

[flaming]

I don't have any difficulty with people's choices of modern off the shelf Bav, Jen, Ben designs for long distance sailing. I only take issue when people on this forum say they are optimised for such a task.

I guess where I came in was that there are wide, fast, modern boats being designed expressly for this task. So one would assume they are optimised for it... Sure they're not for everyone, but I think there is perhaps more than one possible option for what might constitute "the ideal" long distance cruiser designed for the purpose these days.

 

[dom]

I took the trouble to read some of the reviews of the Pogo 12.50. Definitely a high speed machine off the wind. But the owner of such boat in the review said they slammed up wind and were noisy below because of the exstreme flat hull shape. They also cost €220k! If they were a good

A good secondhand one will fetch EUR250-275,000; new, EUR300,000 will be surpassed in a jiffy. BTW that is really quite cheap for what it offers. They are certainly noisy upwind - never sailed on over F5/6, but the din is largely a function of speed. You're right on one thing, loading these up with cruising paraphernalia would ruin them. BTW if budget allows, why not look at a Contest 45? I've never sailed one but they do marry a lot of nice-to-have modern amenities with a lovely traditional finish. You might be surprised.

 

[geem]

A good secondhand one will fetch EUR250-275,000; new, EUR300,000 will be surpassed in a jiffy. BTW that is really quite cheap for what it offers. They are certainly noisy upwind - never sailed on over F5/6, but the din is largely a function of speed. You're right on one thing, loading these up with cruising paraphernalia would ruin them. BTW if budget allows, why not look at a Contest 45? I've never sailed one but they do marry a lot of nice-to-have modern amenities with a lovely traditional finish. You might be surprised.

Are you talking a new Contest 45 of the older ones? My own boat often gets mistaken for a Contest. They are very similar to look at and do a very similar job. They were on our shortlist when we bought a Trintella

 

[RupertW]

So would,you consider a Jen 44i as a comparable cruiser to our elderly Trimtella 44? They are the same size and the same draft.
Over a 26nm sail in narly conditions between Antigua and Barbuda a couple of years back we were outpaced. They arrived 5mins before us. They spent plenty of time rounding up in the gusts and hand steering when the autopilot couldn't cope and the boat was pointing into the wind with sails flogging. By comparison our slow boat just leaned to the gusts and carried on arrow straight. We were fairly hard on the wind but we were nice and dry in the cockpit. We suggested drinks with our friends once we arrived n Barbuda but they were too tired after the sail from Antigua. By comparison we were rested and stress free but we had wasted 5 mins of our life........

Ah, I hope they were early to their boat as it sounds like they made the same mistakes I made and hadn't unlearned the lessons from sailing MABs. It took me about 3 seasons to get away from the idea that the mainsail was useful in anything but light or upwind conditions. Five minutes of sail adjustment on that boat and they would have romped ahead with almost no helm needed and a much easier motion.

Weathercocking and rudder tripping are easily preventable but if not then a modern boat loses it's advantages and sails terribly as you observed. Reaching is probably the most inappropriate point of sail if you set the sails the traditional way so you just get used to the idea of fuller genoa and much smaller (or no) main and the boat is fully under control and surging along. It's hard to get used to the idea that the boat will drive very nicely under genoa alone up to 60 from the wind as the conditions get stronger. I had to learn how to sail the way the boat was designed, not the way my Dad taught me a boat should be at all.

 

[flaming]

A good secondhand one will fetch EUR250-275,000; new, EUR300,000 will be surpassed in a jiffy.

Out of interest, how does that compare with a new built, more traditional, cruiser? An HR or something like that?

 

[Tranona]

To be clear,
I don't have any difficulty with people's choices of modern off the shelf Bav, Jen, Ben designs for long distance sailing. I only take issue when people on this forum say they are optimised for such a task. Every boat is a compromise. You only have to look at the multitude of designs out sailing in any one place to realise that there are many different choices made by individuals as to what is the right boat for them. A standard production boat will do the job, cheaply. It is one solution for many people. It may not be the best solution given an unlimited budget or given an older design for somebody with the appetite to refurbish and prepare such a boat for long distance sailing.

Don't think anybody has ever said AWBs were "optimised" - the term is yours and only seems to be used by you in relation to your boat.

Your major contribution is to denigrate other peoples' choices by saying how unsuitable they are supporting your statement by suggesting that "serious" people (that is members of the OCC for example) don't choose them.

The reality is that more people choose boats different from yours for the simple reason that relatively few of the type you have are available and more importantly perhaps, they prefer modern boats and find them quite satisfactory.

I think the whole argument stems from the fact that there is no singular agreed definition of "long distance sailing", "ocean cruising", "liveaboard" etc so it is not possible to define a boat perfect for the "job". You can claim that yours is optimised for your style of living. However it clearly would not suit others. It is not a question of money. I could buy a boat like yours (perhaps not as fully equipped etc) for far less than my Bavaria cost - or indeed buy the Tradewind I suggested earlier for less money than I sold my old 37 for. So your comment about "cheaply" is way off beam.

A new 40' AWB is well over £200k and you could buy more than one of the old style "favourites" for that money. The cheap way to go long distance sailing (however defined) is to buy an older boat - but the low market value of such boats suggests it is not now a popular option. There are of course many reasons for this which at least brings us back to the OPs dilemma.

 

[dom]

Are you talking a new Contest 45 of the older ones? My own boat often gets mistaken for a Contest. They are very similar to look at and do a very similar job. They were on our shortlist when we bought a Trintella

I was actually talking about the new one. A friend of mine is buying the 57 something or other as a comfortable platform that doesn't require extra crew. Seems very nice and that bit of extra length makes the deck saloon settle down nicely. Me, I'm half tempted to take a 1/5 share in a new Beneteau Fig 3 cos they look so much fun. Not to live on mind! In fact, that's one of the things I'd really miss about being a full time liveaboard, the buzz of stepping onto a zippy boat with a few Waitrose sandwiches , a couple of bottles of water (0 xtra wgt!) and blasting off for the sheer fun of it. Diversity is good