New rules on portable petrol containers?

[Bru]

Two thoughts spring to mind .... once you start squirting fuel into a non-approved container instead of the car's fuel tank - what are the forecourt staff going to do ? Put it back in the pump ... I don't think so.

Stop the pump of course. You might get a bit but not a lot By the book, you shouldn't have even got that far because the staff should have either refused to authorise the pump or stopped it before you even get as far as putting the nozzle in a container

We're instructed not to authorise the pump if we cannot see what is being filled and/or if a vehicle boot or van side door is open (classic tradesmans wheeze) etc.

(That is assuming the staff are doing their job right - on a busy forecourt in the rush hour you might well get away with it. At 3:00am when you're the only vehicle on the forecourt, no chance!)

The second thought is pretty much the same as the diesel-fill-up already discussed - so fill up your 2 x 5 litre plastic pots, then drive out onto the road - transfer their contents to wherever you want it, then drive back onto the forecourt again and repeat the perfomance.

From the pov of the service station, it's a grey area. The rules, from our pov, are ambiguous. I shall ask the big boss to seek guidance from HO on this one (out of academic interest as it's never actually happened). As things stand, if it was diesel I wouldn't be fussed (because you can carry a huge quantity of diesel in anything you like legally) but if it was petrol I would be enquiring as to what was going on otherwise I could find myself aiding and abetting an offence eg. carriage of petrol in illegal containers and/or illegal quantities

 

[Seajet]

Hopefully it was a temporary knee-jerk reaction, but I did notice it reported recently that forecourts in some places had banned all portable cans due to their handiness for rioting purposes...

 

[Bru]

Hopefully it was a temporary knee-jerk reaction, but I did notice it reported recently that forecourts in some places had banned all portable cans due to their handiness for rioting purposes...

That was at the request of the Police (apparently after a national tele-conference between senior police officers) - under the terms of our licence we are obliged to comply with such instructions from police, fire brigade etc. It was, IMO, a not unreasonable request at the time and it was withdrawn as soon as the situation had calmed down

To pick up some of the other points made ...

to clarify, there is no link (and several anomalies) between the regulations for the carriage and storage of petroleum spirits and the rules we have to follow for dispensing the stuff. This leads to the ludicrous situation which I've found myself in more than once where I've had to refuse to serve fuel despite being perfectly well aware that the purchaser would be well within the law when transporting and/or storing it!

Screw top containers is a bit of an issue (to put it mildly). Under the terms of our licence, any UN approved container can be filled and that includes UN pattern jerry cans (the ones with the locking pin). However, our internal rule book states that all fuel containers must be screw top. I have mentioned this to senior management more than once. The internal rules remain the same. Ho hum.

I suspect this tacitly acknowledges the difficulty faced by a member of staff trying to decide whether to authorise a pump from what he/she can see on a busy forecourt from 20 yards away through Pilkington K double glazing whilst dealing with the usual "how do I get to Stansted from here" queries and the bloke on the HGV pumps impatiently thrusting his fuel card at them whilst making two large lattes, one with an extra shot, a regular mocha and a double espresso with a dash of cold mike and oh can we have two ham and cheese toasties and a bacon baguette ....

Now being an old fart on the nice quiet night shift, and also being a more senior member of staff with several years service with the company, I use my discretion and provided they are UN pattern will allow jerry cans to be filled. However, when I'm training new starters I tell them to do it by the book and also that if they are in any doubt at all about the legality of a container they must refuse service - I'd get away (once) with a failed test purchase, somebody on their probationary period with the company wouldn't.

On the dedicated fuel tanks for portable appliances, there is no capacity limit stated in our paperwork. You can buy plastic outboard fuel tanks up to 30 litres and I would authorise the pump to fill one having satisfied myself that it was a pucker tank. I'd still be breaking internal company rules though 'cos they fail to mention such tanks at all! (I have referred this up the chain of command as well btw but nothing has come back down the pipeline)

And for managing this whole difficult confusing situation the poor sod behind the till is probably getting national minimum wage

 

[NormanS]

Oh, my head hurts.

 

[mikeboat]

It seems some folk have immediately made connections with wider issues of Health and Safety and maybe got a bit annoyed about heavy handed legislation etc. Others have just got a headache. Sorry!

So let me keep this compact and to the original point.

I was asking about filling my dedicated removable petrol tanks for my boat which are 2 x 25 litre capacity. The dedicated nature of the containers seems to be the key point.

It seems the answer is that I am not in breach of any regulations and that I am in fact specifically within the relevant licensing regulations and I ought not to have any trouble.

I'll carry a copy of a sample licence in future to demonstrate that I should be allowed to fill these containers with petrol.

As I said earlier, I do realise this may not always work in a staffed service station. However, I feel reassured that I am perfectly OK to ignore any misleading and incorrect "warning notices" in unstaffed forecourts because I am clearly within the law.

Happy trailer sailing/petrol filling!

Mike

 

[Bru]

It seems some folk have immediately made connections with wider issues of Health and Safety and maybe got a bit annoyed about heavy handed legislation etc. Others have just got a headache. Sorry!

So let me keep this compact and to the original point.

I was asking about filling my dedicated removable petrol tanks for my boat which are 2 x 25 litre capacity. The dedicated nature of the containers seems to be the key point.

It seems the answer is that I am not in breach of any regulations and that I am in fact specifically within the relevant licensing regulations and I ought not to have any trouble.

I'll carry a copy of a sample licence in future to demonstrate that I should be allowed to fill these containers with petrol.

As I said earlier, I do realise this may not always work in a staffed service station. However, I feel reassured that I am perfectly OK to ignore any misleading and incorrect "warning notices" in unstaffed forecourts because I am clearly within the law.

Happy trailer sailing/petrol filling!

Mike

Q. are they marked by the manufacturer with BS/EN or UN markings?

Also, bear in mind that my statements are based on the usual licence terms *and* the internal rules in force with one nationwide forecourt operator. Each site is individually licensed and the terms can, and sometimes do, vary and each operator has their own internal rules (as earlier stated, according to ours we *can't* permit the filling of dedicated portable appliance tanks which is a crock)

Further, you can fill ONE dedicated portable appliance tank (according to *our* licence), not two or more!

The signs on the forecourt are probably neither misleading nor incorrect, they are the rules in force at that site. None of it matters if the staff permit you to fill them or it is an unattended site because, provided you are carrying the fuel as a private individual in connection with your own personal, domestic, leisure or sporting activities, you're exempt from the carriage of dangerous goods regulations. You are not breaking any laws attempting to fill the containers (provided they are legal containers).

 

[webcraft]

.... once you start squirting fuel into a non-approved container instead of the car's fuel tank - what are the forecourt staff going to do ? Put it back in the pump ... I don't think so.

Exactly. Been and filled up 2 x 10l plastic containers many times. Once they are full what are they going to do? Tell you to put it back in the pump? Call the police? I doubt it.

Like so many regs, this is for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

- W

 

[mikeboat]

The notices that particularly caught my attention at a supermarket filling station are headed "Legal Warning"!

My tanks are official Yamaha ones but I will have a look to check that they have the correct markings.

Whilst I'm reasonably happy with the outcome, it does leave me beginning to feel a bit annoyed. Outboard manufacturers continue to make outboards. Boat manufacturers continue to make boats. Trailer manufacturers continue to make boat trailers. Retailers contine to sell these items to us. Yet we are encircled with regulations that, if enforced widely (either correctly or incorrectly), would leave us in possession of some very expensive unusable kit.

Still, many thanks again for your comments
Mike

 

[Bilgediver]

It seems some folk have immediately made connections with wider issues of Health and Safety and maybe got a bit annoyed about heavy handed legislation etc. Others have just got a headache. Sorry!

So let me keep this compact and to the original point.

I was asking about filling my dedicated removable petrol tanks for my boat which are 2 x 25 litre capacity. The dedicated nature of the containers seems to be the key point.

It seems the answer is that I am not in breach of any regulations and that I am in fact specifically within the relevant licensing regulations and I ought not to have any trouble.

I'll carry a copy of a sample licence in future to demonstrate that I should be allowed to fill these containers with petrol.

As I said earlier, I do realise this may not always work in a staffed service station. However, I feel reassured that I am perfectly OK to ignore any misleading and incorrect "warning notices" in unstaffed forecourts because I am clearly within the law.

Happy trailer sailing/petrol filling!

Mike

It is not only a matter of regulations regarding filling the tanks.....There are also regulations concerning what you can carry in a car...a van with separate body and trailer as well as regulations regarding how much you can store in your garage. Maybe these all play a part here!!!! I believe you certainly exceed the amount that should be carried in the boot of a car with the quantity you mention.

 

[electrosys]

I think there's a lot of H&S madness here - especially with regard to jerry-cans. The non-pin WWII variety have been chucked on and off lorries by heavy-handed squaddies for donkey's years, never heard of the cam-cap ever having come adrift - so how come the pin type are suddenly considered safe to use, and the others not ? And should you lose the pin, you'd be no better off - except that the can itself would still be of the approved 'safe' type ... crazy. And anyway - there's provision for wiring the cap shut on the Wehrmachtskanister if you're of a paranoid disposition.

As I see it, there really is no effective way to enforce these regulations if someone is bloody-minded: a tank full of petrol - syphon off into jerry cans .... nip down to the next petrol station, and repeat - and so on, if you really are compelled to play such silly games.

And - as I've already pointed out - if the petrol is required for 'work-use' (define/ prove that) then the laws regarding portable fuel containers don't apply anyway.

So we're back to the dispensing licences and the enforcement of those - regardless of whether or not the law is being complied with.

After you with the Valium ...

 

[Alpha22]

I've just seen a man fill 12 NATO style cans and a plastic 25l drum with unleaded petrol. All in plain view. Sandy service station on the A1.
I remarked to the 12 year old cashier but she didn't appear concerned.
That's a lot of petrol in the rear of a pickup truck. Beware if you are in Bedfordshire tonight.

 

[Dazedkipper]

I believe the 5 litre rule refers to plastic containers. Metal ones are allowed to be bigger (presumably as more fire-resistant?).

Nobody's ever complained about my 20-litre metal jerrycans, although I did once have a Tesco security guard wander over to see what was going on. From his angle it had looked like I was pumping fuel straight into the open boot of my car Once he saw there were cans sat in the boot he was quite happy.

Pete

I'd be more worried about filling the inside of my car with vapours than what the security guard may say. Sure fire way to oblivion, just add an ignition source and bang!
Always fill containers outside.

 

[prv]

I'd be more worried about filling the inside of my car with vapours than what the security guard may say.

Not much explosive vapour off diesel

Good point though for those filling petrol cans.

Pete

 

[[202876]]

Hi all.
I have just signed up here, and I know this is an old thread, but I can elaborate on this.
I, as a fire safety inspecting officer for the London fire brigade, had to attend a coroners court as an expert witness following a fatal fire.
A person had split up with the partner and was staying at a hotel, where they decided that they could not cope with life without that other person.
They went to a local fuel station and purchased a fuel can (5 litre) and filled it with petrol. Returned to the hotel and went back and did the same again about five times, so we are talking 25 litres of petrol.
Finally went back to the hotel, poured the whole of the petrol over themselves, and set light to it.
It was a devastating scene, and a sad site to see.
I attended the coroners court (as I said earlier) and when I was called to give evidence, the coroner asked me if I agreed that he should change the law to limit how much petrol a person could purchase, and should they be challenged by staff at the service station if they were to notice multiple purchases being made. Of course, in my capacity as a fire safety officer (and concerned for public safety) I agreed that he should. So, sorry for all those who find it awkward to purchase fuel in bulk, but I was doing my job to protect the public at that time.

Sorry guys.

 

[lustyd]

but I was doing my job to protect the public at that time.

That's your opinion, and your story is horrific which is likely why you have such an unhealthy bias in the matter.

You're not helping, just making it difficult to purchase suitable quantities of fuel. Your story would have ended the same with 5l of fuel as 25l, and people working in fuel stations cannot be expected to monitor who is buying what. People still need the quantity of fuel and will still buy it one way or another, so all you'd achieve is considerable emmissions as they carry out multiple trips to multiple fuel stations

 

[nevis768]

Hi all.
I have just signed up here, and I know this is an old thread, but I can elaborate on this.
I, as a fire safety inspecting officer for the London fire brigade, had to attend a coroners court as an expert witness following a fatal fire.
A person had split up with the partner and was staying at a hotel, where they decided that they could not cope with life without that other person.
They went to a local fuel station and purchased a fuel can (5 litre) and filled it with petrol. Returned to the hotel and went back and did the same again about five times, so we are talking 25 litres of petrol.
Finally went back to the hotel, poured the whole of the petrol over themselves, and set light to it.
It was a devastating scene, and a sad site to see.
I attended the coroners court (as I said earlier) and when I was called to give evidence, the coroner asked me if I agreed that he should change the law to limit how much petrol a person could purchase, and should they be challenged by staff at the service station if they were to notice multiple purchases being made. Of course, in my capacity as a fire safety officer (and concerned for public safety) I agreed that he should. So, sorry for all those who find it awkward to purchase fuel in bulk, but I was doing my job to protect the public at that time.

Sorry guys.

The thing is, if people want to do stuff like that, they will do it anyway, by some other means, so I wouldn't necessarily agree with what you say, you've probably inconvenienced hundreds of people and saved nobody. (And sadly, I've been to more coroners courts than I care to remember, quite a few where arson was the cause of death)

 

[NormanS]

Hi all.
I have just signed up here, and I know this is an old thread, but I can elaborate on this.
I, as a fire safety inspecting officer for the London fire brigade, had to attend a coroners court as an expert witness following a fatal fire.
A person had split up with the partner and was staying at a hotel, where they decided that they could not cope with life without that other person.
They went to a local fuel station and purchased a fuel can (5 litre) and filled it with petrol. Returned to the hotel and went back and did the same again about five times, so we are talking 25 litres of petrol.
Finally went back to the hotel, poured the whole of the petrol over themselves, and set light to it.
It was a devastating scene, and a sad site to see.
I attended the coroners court (as I said earlier) and when I was called to give evidence, the coroner asked me if I agreed that he should change the law to limit how much petrol a person could purchase, and should they be challenged by staff at the service station if they were to notice multiple purchases being made. Of course, in my capacity as a fire safety officer (and concerned for public safety) I agreed that he should. So, sorry for all those who find it awkward to purchase fuel in bulk, but I was doing my job to protect the public at that time.

Sorry guys.

If someone is determined to end it all, it wouldn't make the slightest difference whether they had 5 litres of petrol or 25, so sorry, but I don't see how you were protecting the public at all.

 

[[202876]]

Sorry you feel put out by this, but it was a coroners decision who asked my opinion. With regards to public safety, would you have wanted to be in the room next door to the incident? I can guarantee, you wouldn't want to be. The Fire alarm was disabled by the now deceased and if it had not have been for the quick actions of a member of staff, there would probably have been more than one fatality.
I would suggest you do like others and get yourself an approved Jerry can or two, if you feel the need to store so much fuel. Regards to the law and how much you can carry in containers in the boot, you are restricted by that. So the difference between what you can purchase and transport legally isn't worth getting worked up about.
If the government get their way, you won't be able to purchase any type of petroleum in the future, so I wouldn't worry about emissions.
If you want fuel for a boat, go to a marina that has a pump and fill it up there where you can also fill your cans. That's what I do!!!
Whatever anybody does in life, there will always be somebody who finds fault in it.

 

[Momac]

The HSE say the following

 

[Rappey]

If you want fuel for a boat, go to a marina that has a pump and fill it up there where you can also fill your cans

Problem there ,at least for this area is marinas charge at least 25% more per litre than forecourts.
I have a 30l and 20l demountable which i take to the local petrol station to fill up , whilst saving myself £25 at todays prices .
I may be wrong but you used to be able to carry up to 333l as a private individual in a car without a license, and can put up to 500l in a tank in a trailer which powers machinery (providing everything is up to regulations)
I did try to look it up but its not that easy finding a straight forward answer on gov.uk