New rules on portable petrol containers?

[mikeboat]

I have noticed more and more petrol stations with warnings that petrol may only be dispensed in containers up to 5 litres (max 2 containers).

I have a trailerable sailboat which as supplied by the UK retailer carries 2x 25 litre petrol containers. I usually fill these at petrol stations near my destination.

Does anyone know if the warning signs are as a result of new rules or a new law?

What are we supposed to do with our 25 litre tanks? There must be thousands of trailerable boats needing to fill up with petrol?

Any comments would be much appreciated

Regards
Mike

 

[prv]

I believe the 5 litre rule refers to plastic containers. Metal ones are allowed to be bigger (presumably as more fire-resistant?).

Nobody's ever complained about my 20-litre metal jerrycans, although I did once have a Tesco security guard wander over to see what was going on. From his angle it had looked like I was pumping fuel straight into the open boot of my car Once he saw there were cans sat in the boot he was quite happy.

Pete

 

[pvb]

The regulations are intended to apply to containers used to store petrol in vehicles or garages, etc. I'd suggest you just go ahead and fill your 25 litre containers - they are designed for the job and don't represent any undue hazard. If petrol station staff stop you, simply go along out of hours and use a self-service pump.

 

[Bru]

What goes around comes around and this subject is no exception

The legal position is that, as a result of agreements negotiated between BP and London Fire Brigade to standardise the terms of licensing under the Petroleum Act many years ago, the usual conditions on the licence to dispense petroleum are that fuel* may only be dispensed into approved containers manufactured to the relevant standards and in the following quantities ...

2 x 5l plastic or
2 x 10l metal or
1 x 20l metal

In addition, dedicated tanks for portable equipment manufactured and supplied for the purpose are also permitted e.g. outboard fuel tanks

Jerry cans are a tricky one for service station staff - there are (basically) two types. Older WWII and NATO pattern cans do not have a locking pin to secure the cap and are not permitted. Newer UN pattern cans have a locking pin and are permitted. Many service station operators, appreciating the impossibility of identifying which type of jerry can is being used at the pump, instruct their staff not to permit the filling of jerry cans at all.

25 litre cans are not permitted under the standard licence terms.

*Note that the standard licence terms refer to "fuel" not "petroleum" therefore we have to apply the same rules to diesel as well as petrol illogical though this may be.

It is not permissible to fill cans within a vehicle. They must be removed from the vehicle for filling and the lids secured before being loaded back into the vehicle. This is simple common sense when you think about it - it's all too easy to overfill a container and you don't want petrol sloshing about inside a vehicle. (Also, it is a routine trick to try and fill "illegal" containers inside the vehicle where the forecourt attendant can't see them)

These rules have been in force for many many years however there is currently a trend towards greater enforcement by Petroleum Officers and Trading Standards with test purchases taking place on a regular basis and service station companies being fined and/or threatened with the loss of their licence to dispense petroleum.

Technically, the rules apply at card pay forecourts as well but enforcement relies on somebody half a car park away monitoring a CCTV screen so it doesn't happen very often

To counter the usual arguments remember that ...

... the rules are nowhere to be found in primary legislation, they are contained in the terms of each sites specific licence to dispense petroleum.

... the rules are not linked in any way to what it is legal to carry and/or store fuel in or the quantities that it is legal to carry and/or store

... the rules are not always the same from site to site. Although there is a standard set of terms and conditions, an individual Petroleum Officer can choose to vary them for a given site in his area.

And finally, PLEASE don't get arsey with the staff at a service station if they refuse to let you fill a container or containers. It's not their fault, they are just doing their job and (certainly in our case) if I miss two successive test purchases (illegal containers, under age products and/or lottery sales) I'm out on my ear despite years of exemplary service

 

[TopDonkey]

I needed 350 litres of diesel after all the fuel stations had shut for my boat in reading, all i did was to use my vans fuel tank as a giant fuel can and just drove back and forwards between my boat and the esso petrol station filling it up, the attendant did question me the third time i returned (20 min round trip) as to what i was doing, and i just said i was filling my boat and using the van as a giant fuel can and they just laughed ! (although they were more likely laughing about the £500 i spent with them over a 2 hour period!)

 

[Rigger Mortice]

In the last 15 years I've only had any interest shown at a filling station on one occasion. A girl came over as I was filling the tank, she said that she had to check that it was a "proper" tank. It was a 25litre, plastic tank which looks like a real tank (whatever that may mean!). She seemed happy with it and she sauntered back to the tills.

When I had filled it, I strapped it to the back of my Brompton and cycled back to the harbour. Nobody seemed concerned but I often get a few jokey comments from people when I use the bike as a petrol tanker! (Usually; "What do you get to the gallon?)

 

[theoldsalt]

TopDonkey,

I take it you remembered to leave enough diesel in the vehicle tank to get you back for a refill.

 

[Bru]

I needed 350 litres of diesel after all the fuel stations had shut for my boat in reading, all i did was to use my vans fuel tank as a giant fuel can and just drove back and forwards between my boat and the esso petrol station filling it up, the attendant did question me the third time i returned (20 min round trip) as to what i was doing, and i just said i was filling my boat and using the van as a giant fuel can and they just laughed ! (although they were more likely laughing about the £500 i spent with them over a 2 hour period!)

No problem at all from their p.o.v. Actually, AFAIK, no problem at all from any p.o.v.!

In the last 15 years I've only had any interest shown at a filling station on one occasion. A girl came over as I was filling the tank, she said that she had to check that it was a "proper" tank. It was a 25litre, plastic tank which looks like a real tank (whatever that may mean!). She seemed happy with it and she sauntered back to the tills.

Unless it was specifically manufactured as a portable appliance fuel tank*, she was a naughty girl

Although, as I said earlier, application and enforcement of the rules has been very much hit and miss in the past.

* And permanently marked by the manufacturer with the relevant standards markings etc eg. BS, ISO or UN markings in the prescribed form. And no, as I explained to the chap with the 25 litre plastic container the other week, simply writing "Petrol" on it with a black marker pen doesn't count!

 

[Niander]

I needed 350 litres of diesel after all the fuel stations had shut for my boat in reading, all i did was to use my vans fuel tank as a giant fuel can

I like that idea but how did you get it out of the van dont they have anti syphoning devices in the tanks?
bet you was annoyed missing out on the cheep[ish nowadays] red!

 

[electrosys]

Two thoughts spring to mind .... once you start squirting fuel into a non-approved container instead of the car's fuel tank - what are the forecourt staff going to do ? Put it back in the pump ... I don't think so.

The second thought is pretty much the same as the diesel-fill-up already discussed - so fill up your 2 x 5 litre plastic pots, then drive out onto the road - transfer their contents to wherever you want it, then drive back onto the forecourt again and repeat the perfomance.

 

[ProDave]

... although I did once have a Tesco security guard wander over to see what was going on. From his angle it had looked like I was pumping fuel straight into the open boot of my car Once he saw there were cans sat in the boot he was quite happy.

Reminds me of when I had an ex military series 2 Landrover.

It had a fuel tank under each front seat, but to fill them, you lifted off the seat cushion, slid open a metal panel that revealed the top of the tank, unscrewed the filler and filled directly into the top of the tank inside the car.

On more than one occasion the petrol station staff did not authorise the pump until they had come over to look at why the hose was in the cab.

And you get some very strange looks from your passenger when you ask them to get out, and proceed to dismantle their seat to fill up with petrol.

 

[electrosys]

This might be a workaround (pun intentional):

From the HSE website:

Petrol Filling Stations - Dispensing control measures

General dispensing activities

3 Petrol should be dispensed only by means of dispensing equipment of an appropriate standard into the fuel tanks of internal combustion engines (i.e. on vehicles, motorbikes, boats, planes, mowers etc.) or into appropriately marked or labelled portable containers suitable for keeping petrol. The definition of a suitable container includes demountable fuel tanks and fuel retrievers as well as those containers defined by the Petroleum-Spirit (Motor Vehicle) Regs 1929 and the Petroleum-Spirit (Plastic Container) Regs 1982.

Note: The 1929 and 1982 Regulations do not apply to work activities. This means that an employer's risk assessment, under the Dangerous Substances & Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002, may determine that containers of a type and capacity different to those mentioned above are suitable for the storage (and transport) of petrol in connection with a work process/activity. [such as my WWII jerry cans ... ?]

 

[charles_reed]

I needed 350 litres of diesel after all the fuel stations had shut for my boat in reading, all i did was to use my vans fuel tank as a giant fuel can

I like that idea but how did you get it out of the van dont they have anti syphoning devices in the tanks?
bet you was annoyed missing out on the cheep[ish nowadays] red!

Thank God, in the rest of Europe, they don't have such jobsworthgonemad rules.

The UK is drowning in all these petty rules, added to and administered by these self-important gauleiters.

And people have the gall to complain about the EC rules...
Talk about motes and beams.

 

[mikeboat]

Thanks for your comments especially, Brigantia for your informed and helpful explanation.

Just one point I'd like to clarify:-

You mention the stipulated size of plastic containers and state "In addition, dedicated tanks for portable equipment manufactured and supplied for the purpose are also permitted e.g. outboard fuel tanks". You do not mention any size limit for these dedicated tanks. I've Googled "Petroleum Licence" and found a sample from Gloucester County Council which also has the same wording.

So it seems to me that this means any dedicated removal tank for boats is not limited in size. Have I got this right?

I do understand that this is not much use in a practical situation on a forecourt with a staff member who really doesn't want to switch on the pump! But maybe if I carry a copy of the Licence wording it may sway any staff member who is wavering?!

Thanks again
Mike

 

[pvb]

So it seems to me that this means any dedicated removal tank for boats is not limited in size. Have I got this right?

According to Section 5 of the Boat Safety Scheme, max size for a portable tank is 27 litres. Whether this is BSS's own maximum, or a legislated maximum, is anybody's guess.

 

[aquaplane]

Thanks to Brigantia, a good bit of info that.

I only came across this @ Easter in Fort William. I was trying to fill up my 2X5L green plastic and 1X10L jerrycan @ the supermarket and was informed over the tannoy that I could only fill 2 cans so I finished the one I was filling and then filled the 10L one so I had 15L. I was on foot so it was less for me to carry so I wasn't too bothered.

The cashier pointed to the sign saying folks could only have 1 and a ¼ gallons in a max of 2 containers, so I got way more than the sign said but the sign wasn't correct. They were enforcing it because some arsey bloke turned up with a trailer and wanted to fill loads of 5 gallon containers and got stroppy when they wouldn't let him.

It's good to know that I should be able to use 10 or 20 litre steel containers or my 12L plastic outboard tank, I don't think it would have helped faced with a sign saying 1.25 gallons only though.

 

[prv]

Thank God, in the rest of Europe, they don't have such jobsworthgonemad rules.

They tend to have different ones instead, which we often don't notice. So you point at the German boatowner and say "look, he's allowed to fill his jerrycans in the petrol station", but you don't realise he's not allowed to change the oil in his car on the drive, or to wash it on a Sunday. Or the Frenchman who can buy his cheese from an unrefrigerated market cart, but has to register his 8-foot rowing dinghy with the State.

I totally agree that modern British society is over-regulated, but I don't believe that continental Europe is a paragon of freedom in comparison.

Pete

 

[Honey]

Brigantia,

Just looked on the LFB website and it says:-

"Petroleum means - any product of crude petroleum which has a flashpoint below 21°C. This includes petrol, benzene, pentane and any mixture which contains these products and has a flashpoint below 21°C. This doesn't include white spirit, paraffin, diesel oil or fuel oils."

This deals with storage so rules may be different for fuel for sale.

As someone else commented the rules vary with the local authority and in their enforcement.

In my area the limit is 2 x 5 ltr plastic or 1 x 10 ltr metal. All containers must be SCREW top, so no jerry cans. This is a big problem for our club which runs two rhibs as rescue boats!

John

 

[maxi77]

They tend to have different ones instead, which we often don't notice. So you point at the German boatowner and say "look, he's allowed to fill his jerrycans in the petrol station", but you don't realise he's not allowed to change the oil in his car on the drive, or to wash it on a Sunday. Or the Frenchman who can buy his cheese from an unrefrigerated market cart, but has to register his 8-foot rowing dinghy with the State.

I totally agree that modern British society is over-regulated, but I don't believe that continental Europe is a paragon of freedom in comparison.

Pete

I think we ended up with some very pedantic rules about petrol specifically because we do get some real numpties from time to time who do some very stupid things. Regretably though the rules they have ended up with do not realy stop people from being silly. At the end of the day every country has it's fair share of silly rules, and we are going to be stuck with most of them what ever we say or do. Nonbe are really worth getting ones blood pressure up about

 

[owen-cox]

Thank God, in the rest of Europe, they don't have such jobsworthgonemad rules.

The UK is drowning in all these petty rules, added to and administered by these self-important gauleiters.

And people have the gall to complain about the EC rules...
Talk about motes and beams.

Actually they have exactly the same rules re HSE they just dont enforce them. I truly believe as well that the majority of "health and safety" rules in this country are misinterpretations by over zealous "advisers" that have to make sure their client is not open to sueing.