New marinas in the Uk

[Snowgoose-1]

Seems unlikely in foreseeable future ?
Cost, planning permission etc , time for return investors. Only recent ones in ex docks. Heavy engineering ?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

That's the issue isn't it ROI. How much to build a marina for say 400 boats and then operate it annually? even if the average berth is £5000 and that is possibly high it's still only £2 million a year which doesn't leave much for running, wages, tax and interest on the capital to give any sort of return.

 

[jac]

Add in NIMBYS.

To be fair - i think many obvious places where there is demand already have marinas established in the sensible locations with minimal opportunity for brand new sites.

What i could see though is reconfiguration / expansion of existing sites - add another walkway and finger pontoons onto an existing site for example or extend existing sites a little further out or turning a sailing club launch / waiting / dinghy pontoon into a small "marina" with 1/2 dozen berths

One could even badge them as clearing up the visual environment by removing xx swinging moorings in "natural" locations and replacing them with walk ashores which might mollify some objectors,

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Fag packet calculations

Say £10 million including land and construction costs

Investors are going to want something like a 10% return so that's £1million out of the annual berthing returns assuming the £2 million as above that leaves £1million to service the marina, it's very tight and that's why berthing fees are going up.

 

[crewman]

There have been proposals for a new marina at Granton in Edinburgh for about 20 years. They all seem to get to publishing outline plans and a prospectus then vanishing.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

There have been proposals for a new marina at Granton in Edinburgh for about 20 years. They all seem to get to publishing outline plans and a prospectus then vanishing.

No financial backers because the return isn't there?

 

[xcw]

Whatever happened to the proposed new marina in E Cowes (just beyond the entrance on the left hand side) ? It seems to have gone very quiet. Dead in the water?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Adding a new trot to a marina is not that straightforward. It requires in Scotland at least, a huge amount of assessments to be performed and various parties to be consulted, before you even get ti planning permission. A recent trot replacement with new cost about 600k for 30 boats each side. Added value from extra revenue streams renting space to businesses, cafeterias and even rental properties all add up.

Maybe government should be more involved offering incentives to expend marine tourism, but the bang for the buck would have to be good.

 

[Minerva]

There have been proposals for a new marina at Granton in Edinburgh for about 20 years. They all seem to get to publishing outline plans and a prospectus then vanishing.

Notice all the Granton marina plans have also been accompanied by more house building proposals...? Most of those are built.

The cynic in me thinks that from a developer's POV, having your customers' believe that the muddy drying harbour filled with cheap wee 25' boats they look at today, being turned into something resembling St Tropez in a couple of years may not exactly harm the selling of the flats...

 

[ImpImp]

Isn't there something planned as part of the development of the old Fawley power station complex?

 

[ylop]

Seems unlikely in foreseeable future ?
Cost, planning permission etc , time for return investors. Only recent ones in ex docks. Heavy engineering ?

Depends how you define marina! Fort William has just has a new “marina” and there are proposals under discussion for one at Millport. Neither of those are driven by simple commercial ROI though (and are tiny by most standards).

Redundant docks make a lot of sense for marinas - they are already protected, have road infrastructure, power, potentially buildings, have often become an eyesore, may attract financial regeneration support etc.

I’m not sure we need more £5K pa marina berths. Really good sheltered mooring fields with a pontoon for water, maybe fuel, dinghy park etc are probably more in demand - but of course that doesn’t translate to £.

 

[finestgreen]

There's one proposed for Southampton:

Marina and hotel part of £200m Hants waterfront development plan

 

[jac]

Depends how you define marina! Fort William has just has a new “marina” and there are proposals under discussion for one at Millport. Neither of those are driven by simple commercial ROI though (and are tiny by most standards).

Redundant docks make a lot of sense for marinas - they are already protected, have road infrastructure, power, potentially buildings, have often become an eyesore, may attract financial regeneration support etc.

I’m not sure we need more £5K pa marina berths. Really good sheltered mooring fields with a pontoon for water, maybe fuel, dinghy park etc are probably more in demand - but of course that doesn’t translate to £.

Stories though of Deep water moorings being less popular than they used to be. I suspect that a generally ageing sailing population combined with new comers who are time poor makes a pressing case for walk ashore convenience

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Stories though of Deep water moorings being less popular than they used to be. I suspect that a generally ageing sailing population combined with new comers who are time poor makes a pressing case for walk ashore convenience

With the correct set up they don't need to be, some shoreside facilities and a 7 day a week 12hr water taxi included in the mooring fee as a minimum would see many move from marina to mooring.

 

[MisterBaxter]

I think the economics of UK marina building have had a lot to do with property sales in the past. Thinking of Penarth and Exmouth as two examples, they were basically housing development projects using the 'waterside living' aspirational development concept.

 

[Tranona]

There's one proposed for Southampton:

Marina and hotel part of £200m Hants waterfront development plan

That basic proposition has been around for 40 odd years. I remember quoting to build a boat for one of the developers for use as a flagship. Needless to say the idea never really got past the plan position.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Depends how you define marina! Fort William has just has a new “marina” and there are proposals under discussion for one at Millport. Neither of those are driven by simple commercial ROI though (and are tiny by most standards).

Redundant docks make a lot of sense for marinas - they are already protected, have road infrastructure, power, potentially buildings, have often become an eyesore, may attract financial regeneration support etc.

I’m not sure we need more £5K pa marina berths. Really good sheltered mooring fields with a pontoon for water, maybe fuel, dinghy park etc are probably more in demand - but of course that doesn’t translate to £.

I think there is a demand for berths from smaller boats, sub £5k ballpark. However, the new boats in my marina are all modern +40’ers; and a waiting list. The marina owner is planning on doubling capacity to fill the space. They also squeezed in a 16% increase this year and no one walked away.

I think mooring demand will increase as new pensioners decide to manage costs and realise that they do not need a marina. Then again the next wave of retirees have ridden the tail winds of baby boomers and may have the cash for marina convenience.

Some in the government fear that we aint seen anything yet in cost increases.

 

[Tranona]

With the correct set up they don't need to be, some shoreside facilities and a 7 day a week 12hr water taxi included in the mooring fee as a minimum would see many move from marina to mooring.

If you have a sheltered basin then there is little advantage in moorings, either pile or swinging over walk ashore pontoons and fingers. When our club basin was built nearly 40 years ago the plan was to install sufficient pile moorings to equal the number of swinging moorings lost to the ferry terminal development. In the event good design and a lot of "self help" got about 25% more boats in the same space with finger berths. The 3 big capital costs with building marinas are outer protection, pontoons and walkways and dredging. The proportions of each vary from site to site, but to give you an idea our 400 approx berth pontoons and fingers cost over £600k to renew 5 years ago, largely materials as the club provided most of the labour. They have about 30 years life. The bund wall and piles were built by the Harbour Commissioners but subsequently the club acquired a 999 year lease. The club already owned the freehold of the shoreside facilities

Up to now the annual running costs have been modest because one of the big issues - dredging has been less than anticipated unlike many south and east coast marinas which are built on reclaimed marsh land and are tidal and dredging costs are one of their biggest outgoings This is all about to change, as it has already for commercial marinas that operate a boatyard as well with environmental legislation, primarily aimed at cleaning up pollution from antifouling. Even relatively small scale facilities like we will have run into hundreds of K.

Of course each site has its own individual characteristics, but I am not convinced that pile or swinging moorings that are easily accessible are necessarily cheaper to operate, nor that lower prices will make moorings more attractive. As has often been noted there is a steady decline in the number of non marina moorings except in high demand areas like the Hamble and some of the west country rivers. Equally pretty sure the number of boats overall will decrease over the years as the number of new boats sold is small (at least sailing boats) and the number falling out of use at the other end is increasing.

 

[Resolution]

Whatever happened to the proposed new marina in E Cowes (just beyond the entrance on the left hand side) ? It seems to have gone very quiet. Dead in the water?

My yacht club was invited to JV on the development, but then the leaders of the young social set swore that they would never go partying on the LHS, so the proposal was dropped. Big pity in my opinion.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Depends how you define marina! Fort William has just has a new “marina” and there are proposals under discussion for one at Millport. Neither of those are driven by simple commercial ROI though (and are tiny by most standards).

Redundant docks make a lot of sense for marinas - they are already protected, have road infrastructure, power, potentially buildings, have often become an eyesore, may attract financial regeneration support etc.

I’m not sure we need more £5K pa marina berths. Really good sheltered mooring fields with a pontoon for water, maybe fuel, dinghy park etc are probably more in demand - but of course that doesn’t translate to £.

Guessing that sailing in the UK peaked about 25 years, ago but still waiting lists for all the marinas my why. Two "new" marinas in that time both ex docks . Still lots of boomers around . Many ex swinger's now in marinas.