New Italian Tax on Yachts

[Deleted User YDKXO]

As a matter of fact, I would bet that also those who established this tax can understand that, but as I said, they had to do something anyway.

I don't know what they understand but they surely don't understand that taxing foreigners for the dubious privilege of visiting their country is economic illiteracy. Surely, everyone in Italy could see the economic case for exempting foreigners from this tax?

 

[MapisM]

Yes and no, Mike.

Firstly, everyone and their dog know that many boats registered abroad, particularly the bigger ones, are actually owned (one way or another) by Italians, and in this respect what you're envisaging could have been even more discriminating. I for one, with my own 15 years old (phew!) IT flagged boat, personally owned, with no commercial camouflage whatsoever, would have been pixxed big time.

Secondly, your suggestion doesn't fit EU principles, so they couldn't have done that, regardless of the first point.

 

[oldgit]

Pot and Kettle ?

" Surely, everyone in Italy could see the economic case for exempting foreigners from this tax? "


Err do we not do exactly the same with APD.

From the Huffington Post

"However, the way Britain can in the long-term attract more tourism is by urgently addressing some of the structural disincentives that put off travellers from coming to the UK year-after-year. One major barrier is Air Passenger Duty (APD) - a levy which is the highest in the world for all travellers departing British airports."

Very much doubt we will be exempting foreigners from anything in the near future.The presumption being wether you float or fly you can afford it.

 

[MapisM]

a levy which is the highest in the world for all travellers departing British airports.

And as I understand it's not only for foreigners anyway, or is it?
As in the previous example, that would be against EU principles.

 

[oldgit]

And as I understand it's not only for foreigners anyway, or is it?
As in the previous example, that would be against EU principles.

Applies to all ...no exemptions,if you can afford to fly you can afford the tax.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

" Surely, everyone in Italy could see the economic case for exempting foreigners from this tax? "


Err do we not do exactly the same with APD.

From the Huffington Post

"However, the way Britain can in the long-term attract more tourism is by urgently addressing some of the structural disincentives that put off travellers from coming to the UK year-after-year. One major barrier is Air Passenger Duty (APD) - a levy which is the highest in the world for all travellers departing British airports."

Very much doubt we will be exempting foreigners from anything in the near future.The presumption being wether you float or fly you can afford it.

Not arguing with that. Its stupid and counter productive. Air passenger numbers through UK airports have fallen in recent years whereas numbers through European airports continue to grow. That should be a lesson to any countries thinking about taxing tourists

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yes and no, Mike.

Firstly, everyone and their dog know that many boats registered abroad, particularly the bigger ones, are actually owned (one way or another) by Italians, and in this respect what you're envisaging could have been even more discriminating. I for one, with my own 15 years old (phew!) IT flagged boat, personally owned, with no commercial camouflage whatsoever, would have been pixxed big time.

Secondly, your suggestion doesn't fit EU principles, so they couldn't have done that, regardless of the first point.

I would have thought such a tax contravenes EU principles regarding free movement of people, capital, goods and services within the EU. In effect a tax on foreign boats entering Italy is a customs duty and that is outlawed. Yes I agree that it is not easy to differentiate between foreign owned boats and foreign flagged Italian owned boats

 

[MapisM]

In effect a tax on foreign boats entering Italy is a customs duty and that is outlawed.

Nope, it's not a duty. It's called "tassa di stazionamento", which means that it's a sort of fee for staying in (or "using", if you wish) the IT territorial waters.
Rest assured that the current Italian PM can teach these things to all of us, bar none - and in fact he did, for most of his life.
I attended his Political Economy course almost 30 years ago, and even if he was only 40, he was already one of the more outstanding personalities of my university, together with Demattè, which sadly died some years ago.
Remember the bunga bunga? Well, think about someone as much opposite as possible to that style, and you'll still be nowhere near the professionality of this guy.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Nope, it's not a duty. It's called "tassa di stazionamento", which means that it's a sort of fee for staying in (or "using", if you wish) the IT territorial waters.

If it walks, talks and smells like a customs duty, it is one but I'm sure the good professor will persuade his Euro buddies that it isn't one. However the effect is just the same

 

[jfm]

If it walks, talks and smells like a customs duty, it is one but I'm sure the good professor will persuade his Euro buddies that it isn't one. However the effect is just the same

It doesn't really walk and talk like a customs duty mike. If it applied to boats brought into Italy from Spain, UK, France, etc but not to boats made in Italy, then it would be a customs duty becuase it would discriminate against imported goods and protect home producers. But it doesn't.

As MapisM says, it cannot be applied to locals but not foreigners/tourists, under EU law

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

It doesn't really walk and talk like a customs duty mike. If it applied to boats brought into Italy from Spain, UK, France, etc but not to boats made in Italy, then it would be a customs duty becuase it would discriminate against imported goods and protect home producers. But it doesn't.

As MapisM says, it cannot be applied to locals but not foreigners/tourists, under EU law

Its a duty in the sense that it hampers free movement of people between EU countries and that contravenes a fundamental article of the EU IMHO. Still this is all hypothetical as nobody is going to challenge it given that its part of the (forlorn) saving the Euro campaign

 

[MapisM]

If it walks, talks and smells like a customs duty, it is one but I'm sure the good professor will persuade his Euro buddies that it isn't one.

nobody is going to challenge it given that its part of the (forlorn) saving the Euro campaign

Mmm... I'm not entering into further technicalities on duties, because based on your reply to jfm I understand that it would be pointless.
I'm more interested in your statements above because, by the same token, I must think that if it walks, talks and smells like a prejudice, it is one.
See, I don't mind if you start an europhobic thread every other week in the lounge, but don't you think that mocking Italy, its PM and its citizens for what THEY are doing, only because you might have to pay a ridiculous amount - which you can avoid if you wish, and in fact you already said that you will - is a bit OTT?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

See, I don't mind if you start an europhobic thread every other week in the lounge, but don't you think that mocking Italy, its PM and its citizens for what THEY are doing, only because you might have to pay a ridiculous amount - which you can avoid if you wish, and in fact you already said that you will - is a bit OTT?

Perhaps its because I care about Italy. As I think I have mentioned before, I have been visiting Italy and doing business with Italian companies for nearly 30 years and mocking Italy or its new PM would never be my intention. Perhaps its my 'anglo-saxon' ways but I don't see how loading an arbritrary tax on all boats entering Italy can possibly help the economy. If Italy is to have a chance to grow its way out of this mess, what it needs is less tax, not more. It would be better if your Mr Monti started hacking away at the ridiculously generous pension and social security arrangements that Italians currently enjoy rather than loading yet more of a tax burden onto a viable industry like boating. But then as I say, thats the anglo saxon way of looking at market economics and I realise this doesn't accord with the statist economic model which most Eurozone countries seem to want to follow for better or worse

 

[MapisM]

Perhaps its because I care about Italy.

Yeah, maybe.
Or maybe because you and your business partners might have some advantages if Italy would have a weaker currency.
'Salright though, that doesn't make any difference, at the end of the day.
What strikes me is that on any EU matters, everyone has a clear vision on what others are doing wrong and could do right.
Don't get me started on what Flashman should do!
Just because I care about the UK, you know...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Or maybe because you and your business partners might have some advantages if Italy would have a weaker currency.

I don't want to get into that discussion because we're on the wrong forum but I have a certain view on that

'Salright though, that doesn't make any difference, at the end of the day.
What strikes me is that on any EU matters, everyone has a clear vision on what others are doing wrong and could do right.
Don't get me started on what Flashman should do!
Just because I care about the UK, you know...

Just maybe its better to be outside a problem to have a clearer view of how the problem should be addressed. We call it not seeing the wood for the trees

 

[MapisM]

We call it not seeing the wood for the trees

LOL, yeah, I heard that. We could arrange a context, I suppose.
What about eice primum trabem de oculo tuo, et tunc videbis eicere festucam de oculo fratris tui?
If nothing else, mine is from the Gospel, it should be good for some more points...

 

[jimbaerselman]

. . . but I don't see how loading an arbritrary tax on all boats entering Italy can possibly help the economy.

Nit-picking I know, but this isn't a tax on boats entering, it's a tax on all boat using Italian waters. Similar to our road fund tax for vehicles using roads . . . and yes, roads cost more to maintain and lay down.

 

[Magnum]

Who is going to collect this tax? I cannot see widespread cooperation happening which surely means it will go the same way as the fairly recent Sardinian tax.

 

[PowerToSail.com]

Who is going to collect this tax? I cannot see widespread cooperation happening which surely means it will go the same way as the fairly recent Sardinian tax.

I have anecdotal evidence that the port authorities are invoicing their berth holders for it. An Italian friend told me that in San Remo they are invoicing their holders in advance, which strikes me as being slightly odd since the boats are likely to spend some time in other waters.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

LOL, yeah, I heard that. We could arrange a context, I suppose.
What about eice primum trabem de oculo tuo, et tunc videbis eicere festucam de oculo fratris tui?
If nothing else, mine is from the Gospel, it should be good for some more points...

Well, I accept your proverb and I offer you one that was specifically written by Matthew to describe fiscal union
Attendite a falsis prophetis, qui veniunt ad vos in vestimentis ovium, intrinsecus autem sunt lupi rapaces