New Italian Tax on Yachts

[MapisM]

I agree with everything you're saying, with one exception.
For anyone who has a boat like yours, and the means to keep her running, c'mon, we all know that 3k Eur would neither be here nor there in the grand scheme.
That's why I called the tax reasonable. Though I guess we can argue about the choice of the adjective - does "affordable" sound more appropriate?
In other words, we wouldn't be even discussing this, if anywhere in the Med all boats would be subject to a tax like this.
How many boaters do you think would give up boating, or live the Med for that reason alone? I bet less than 1%.
Not to mention if the tax would be the same anywhere in the world.
See, this is THE issue of fiscal regulations in modern days: as long as anyone has the opportunity to avoid paying, he/she does. Therefore, the only way to make any fiscal system really work is to get rid of these opportunities.
And if you think about it, that doesn't apply only to boats. "Movable assets", actually means almost ANY asset, with just a few exceptions like buildings.

 

[blueglass]

Compared to the Greek special tax - the Italian version is indeed on the face of it sort of "reasonable". My modest 11 metre boat in Greece would have attracted more tax than Deleted User's far bigger boat in Italy - I was watching the situation like a hawk and at the first sign of implementation - I had the ropes in my hand. I would almost certainly do the same if I was in Italy now.
we all have our cut off points and if we can easily avoid even a "reasonable" tax - we all will

 

[jimbaerselman]

Compared to the Greek special tax - the Italian version is indeed on the face of it sort of "reasonable". My modest 11 metre boat in Greece would have attracted more tax than Deleted User's far bigger boat in Italy - I was watching the situation like a hawk and at the first sign of implementation - I had the ropes in my hand. I would almost certainly do the same if I was in Italy now.
we all have our cut off points and if we can easily avoid even a "reasonable" tax - we all will

Actually, the annual Greek tax (as amended) was more reasonable. You'd only have paid €301 per year! It was the "one-off" tax which hit the first 10m of boat - adding €3,000 pa, which was the real pain.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I had a look at your webpage for Italy, and you might wish to amend the following:

Many thanks. Page edited. I don't know whether the law has been enacted yet, so I'm using the phrase "expected" until I know for certain!

 

[MapisM]

Compared to the Greek special tax - the Italian version is indeed on the face of it sort of "reasonable". My modest 11 metre boat in Greece would have attracted more tax than Deleted User's far bigger boat in Italy - I was watching the situation like a hawk and at the first sign of implementation - I had the ropes in my hand. I would almost certainly do the same if I was in Italy now.
we all have our cut off points and if we can easily avoid even a "reasonable" tax - we all will

Yep, this is exactly the key point.
Let's assume for a moment that you should pay the "Italian" tax anywhere in the Med. Would it have been bad enough to reach your cut off point and leave the Med? And if yes, for which other destination?

 

[PowerToSail.com]

It seems a great shame that Italy seems determined to shoot itself in the foot over this tax; particularly as there is some over capacity in Italian ports and none in most of the French ones, certainly not the ones near the French border. The problems seem likely to be exacerbated in both countries!

 

[blueglass]

Yep, this is exactly the key point.
Let's assume for a moment that you should pay the "Italian" tax anywhere in the Med. Would it have been bad enough to reach your cut off point and leave the Med? And if yes, for which other destination?

Good question. An 11 metre boat less than 15 years old works out at E1,825. If applied universally to all med countries - I would probably stay.
But - I would spend the summer afloat and the winter on the hard, thus reducing my bill to E912.50. This I could live with because;

1. the marina fees in Greece are half the UK and so I would still be well ahead compared with back home.
2. I love the place.

 

[MapisM]

I would probably stay.

Bingo!

 

[jfm]

MapisM, if the tax were applied universally in all-EU or all-Med I would definitely stay and pay. But it isn't, and that's the whole point

Equal/unequal taxes are a constant source of friction in the EU. Countries imposing taxes want every other EU memeber to do the same, then taxpayers cannot move across a border to escape. Hence, Italy would love it if France imposed a boat tax too.

In the proposed EU treaty Sarkozy/Merckel want a financial transactions tax, but UK doesn't for obvious reasons. UK gets much bad press from Sarkozy et al about this. Yet France offers extraordinary tax breaks to Med yachts, compared with neighbours Italy and Spain, thus supporting its yacht industry.

Twas ever thus!

 

[blueglass]

Bingo!

for me, maybe - others would have a different cut off point.
e.g if I couldn't get a place over winter on the hard, then my cut off point would have maybe been exceeded and if indeed this was a med-wide tax, available hardstanding, already at a premium would soon dry up, or operators would wise up and hike up the prices.

 

[MapisM]

It seems a great shame that Italy seems determined to shoot itself in the foot over this tax; particularly as there is some over capacity in Italian ports and none in most of the French ones, certainly not the ones near the French border. The problems seem likely to be exacerbated in both countries!

You're basically correct - a couple of comments to that:
1) the government HAD to introduce some "luxury" taxes at this point in time (not only boats are affected, btw) - no matter how effective they will be. There's a major realpolitik component in that.
2) it already happens now, and probably even more so in the near future, that the overall cost of mooring a boat in SoF can be higher than in some places in IT, even considering the tax on top of the berthing costs.
So, from an economic perspective, boaters should actually move from SoF to IT in spite of the new tax.
Otoh, for some boaters, the economic perspective is not relevant at all, and they're probably happier to pay 100 than 90, if part of the 90 includes a tax, just as a point in principle.

 

[MapisM]

Twas ever thus!

Yep, sadly - considering the outcome.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I agree with everything you're saying, with one exception.
For anyone who has a boat like yours, and the means to keep her running, c'mon, we all know that 3k Eur would neither be here nor there in the grand scheme.
That's why I called the tax reasonable. Though I guess we can argue about the choice of the adjective - does "affordable" sound more appropriate?
In other words, we wouldn't be even discussing this, if anywhere in the Med all boats would be subject to a tax like this.
How many boaters do you think would give up boating, or live the Med for that reason alone? I bet less than 1%.

Its not about the money, its about the principle here. I have a problem being enthusiastic about visiting a country who wants to tax me for the privilege of spending my tourist Euros there. I don't begrudge the €400 or so I get ripped off every year for a Croatian cruising vignette; at least I can rationalise that as a contribution to the cost of upkeeping all those handsome lighthouses but having to pay the Italian govt €3k for basically bugger all really sticks in my craw. I don't have any problem spending another €3k on my boat but when I see nothing for it, I get pissed off. So, no, €3k is not reasonable IMHO

 

[jfm]

There's a major realpolitik component in that.

Yup, for sure. If government is preaching "several years of austerity" to the general population they have to tax the rich harder. Eg here in UK we tax even modest incomes at 51.5% now

 

[MapisM]

Eg here in UK we tax even modest incomes at 51.5% now

Blimey, really? I wasn't aware of that!
I was in London just one week ago, and I suppose that explains the impression I had: most shops were half empty, compared to the very same pre-Xmas period of last year.
Does that match with some more accurate econometric estimates which you might have seen lately?
Sometimes I wonder if the early and mid years of the last decade weren't the historical eqiuvalent of the roaring twenties...

 

[MapisM]

I don't have any problem spending another €3k on my boat but when I see nothing for it, I get pissed off.

Yep, that's what I meant! In other words, you're happier to pay 100 than 90, considering my previous example.
Mind, I'm neither saying that this is stupid nor that I don't understand it.
As a matter of fact, I would bet that also those who established this tax can understand that, but as I said, they had to do something anyway.

 

[blueglass]

Its not about the money, its about the principle here. I have a problem being enthusiastic about visiting a country who wants to tax me for the privilege of spending my tourist Euros there.IMHO

the man has a point. I can accomodate paying tax to my own government. they do build roads for me to drive on, empty my bins, build the odd hospital for me and once upon a time they educated my kids, but forking out 1000's of euros for nil return does stick in my craw too. I would pay a "reasonable" sum applied universally, just to stay in the med, but you would never get me to like it.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yup, for sure. If government is preaching "several years of austerity" to the general population they have to tax the rich harder. Eg here in UK we tax even modest incomes at 51.5% now

You could say its 60%+ if you consider employers national insurance which is an income tax by any other name

 

[MapisM]

you would never get me to like it.

Yeah, of course!
You're not saying that you really liked paying taxes to "your own government" anyway, are you?

 

[blueglass]

Yeah, of course!
You're not saying that you really liked paying taxes to "your own government" anyway, are you?

no, I said I could "accommodate" it - subtle difference.