New Italian Tax on Yachts

[Deleted User YDKXO]

no mike,

you had to pay 3.3K euro in 2009, if you haven't YET paid that, you're liable to 20K by easter time (with the 10% increase per month).
OTOH, if you've paid that as in my case, you just have to wait for whatever stupidity the government comes up with next...
Plan is for a 2K pa for 43ft (or thereabouts) which is reasonable with a twist but I wont explain that now it's slightly offtopic (ahem, as if we're ever on topic for more than a dozen posts )

We (I think, not read/heard the news today...) are still in euro.
Not much industry left (overall) there are a few companies doing grp boats up to 7-8m max for the local market. They are good.
We also have a few companies doing ribs with mixed results from what I hear.

cheers

V

Ah OK I understand. I still don't call it reasonable even if it is €2k. It damages the Greek boating industry so I suspect it's one of those stupid taxes that raises less than it actually costs the economy

 

[blueglass]

Ah OK I understand. I still don't call it reasonable even if it is €2k. It damages the Greek boating industry so I suspect it's one of those stupid taxes that raises less than it actually costs the economy

I agree no way "reasonable". What is also deeply unfair is that it appears an entire lottery whether or not you get charged. TBH I didn't realise ANYBODY was actually paying the damn thing - I thought they were still talking about how/when it would be implemented. I'm out of there now so not my concern, but commiserations with anybody singled out.

 

[gjgm]

I agree no way "reasonable". What is also deeply unfair is that it appears an entire lottery whether or not you get charged. TBH I didn't realise ANYBODY was actually paying the damn thing - I thought they were still talking about how/when it would be implemented. I'm out of there now so not my concern, but commiserations with anybody singled out.

Well my very crude understanding of tax collection in Greece is that it is.. limited. Does italy also have a poor record?
In which case,eyewatering taxes on boats may simply be a way of collecting SOME tax of @the rich@.
I'd be happy to pay those figures instead of income tax for example

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Well my very crude understanding of tax collection in Greece is that it is.. limited. Does italy also have a poor record?
In which case,eyewatering taxes on boats may simply be a way of collecting SOME tax of @the rich@.
I'd be happy to pay those figures instead of income tax for example

I have a lot of dealings with Italian companies thru my business and all I can say is that they're pretty hot on auditing invoices between us and the reason is always that they're **** scared of anything that might remotely look like money laundering or shifting money out of the country. I think the Italian tax collection system is a lot more aggressive than it used to be although there is probably a difference between the wealth creating North and the idle South on that one

 

[giammic72]

Hi to all, I'm italian and I've a boat. This Law will not give any benefit to Italy.
The worst thing is the italian government has increased already the gasoline prices. So next year I'll waste 10% more than last year. All the boats, (new, old, motor boat, sailing boat) will waste more money for gasoline. Last summer the average price for gasoline in the marina was 1.75 euro, next year will be 1.9euro or more

 

[jimbaerselman]

BTW, in Greece they have a staircase approach to taxation, so for the first 8m length you pay A, then for the 8-10 B, 10-12 C, 12-15 D, etc
the price then for a say 13m works out as:

8XA + 2XB + 2XC + 1XD = 2K (more or less dont remember exactly, not being implemented yet) That's an annual tax btw and that's the re-incarnation of the boat/yacht tax following the carnage left behind the 2009 special tax.

The carnage as I understand it which I hope wont be the case in Italy is that every mobo and yacht (over 10m) that was in G for more than so and so days (don't remember I think a couple of months) so basically every craft moored and stored in G, had to pay a one off tax in 2009. To get a figure for 43ft and over 10years old it was around 3300euro. Following some extensions deadline was April of 2010 or so. From that day on, every month the charge has a nice surcharge of 10% PER FCKING MONTH!!!

The Greek tax you refer to was only enforced for a month, and that was 19 months ago. It was seen to be unworkable, and its application was then suspended. A consultation document on revised Greek boating regulations was circulated in July this year, planned to be implemented this winter. You can read full details of the current situation at http://www.jimbsail.info/drupal/going-foreign/countries/greece

If you check marinas, stored in the dry are dozens of craft (per marina) that haven't been in the water since 2008. I'm not exaggerating that there must be a couple of thousand 10+m craft on the hard with no tax paid in Athens alone! Fair enough, the problem is that most owners are not willing to pay and want to sell (the ones that want to use them have already paid as it's getting tighter to be allowed in and out of port without this doc). Hence the problems I had finding a 43ft mobo with tax paid (ratio is one to 10 checked and I'm not exagerating). Ppl believe that they can just find someone to bear the charges. Mind you on a 43ft mobo, my mate with the P410 paid 5K before the summer, the charges are now around 12K and by easter they'll be edging 20K
Mind you unless the tax is paid you are doomed, there's no way to freeze that and even destroying the craft (a whole beaurocratic mess in itself) wont stop the charges running.

This "special tax" was suspended 19 months ago, so I don't understand what on earth you're talking about here, unless you're complaining that your mate's marina charges have gone up.

Greece, Turkey and Tunisia remain the cheapest countries in the Med to keep leisure boats.

If you want to know the current boating tax situations in Greece and in Italy (or Turkey or Croatia for that matter) rest your cursor on this site's "Going Foreign" tab, then select the country from the drop down lists.

 

[vas]

The Greek tax you refer to was only enforced for a month, and that was 19 months ago. It was seen to be unworkable, and its application was then suspended. A consultation document on revised Greek boating regulations was circulated in July this year, planned to be implemented this winter. You can read full details of the current situation at http://www.jimbsail.info/drupal/going-foreign/countries/greece

This "special tax" was suspended 19 months ago, so I don't understand what on earth you're talking about here, unless you're complaining that your mate's marina charges have gone up.

Greece, Turkey and Tunisia remain the cheapest countries in the Med to keep leisure boats.

If you want to know the current boating tax situations in Greece and in Italy (or Turkey or Croatia for that matter) rest your cursor on this site's "Going Foreign" tab, then select the country from the drop down lists.

What I'm saying applies to vessels over 9.99m long (the way Greek gov calculates it). I did complete a purchase of a 43ft 35yo mobo just over a month ago.
In order to leave the marina, the harbour master wanted to see the 2009 special tax payment slip.
I could be just imagining it, but I wasn't. Its not a load of bollox, not much point, and nothing to gain out of talking bollox to this community.

You may believe what you wish, the special tax was never officially abolished, it's still on.

For 2011 the plan is to charge a special tax which is going to be 5% of the taxable value of the vessel so for mine it will be 5% of 35K (or thereabouts)

I'd love to be proved wrong, in the particular economic situation, I doubt it.

Over and out.

V.

 

[blueglass]

What I'm saying applies to vessels over 9.99m long (the way Greek gov calculates it). I did complete a purchase of a 43ft 35yo mobo just over a month ago.
In order to leave the marina, the harbour master wanted to see the 2009 special tax payment slip.
I could be just imagining it, but I wasn't. Its not a load of bollox, not much point, and nothing to gain out of talking bollox to this community.

You may believe what you wish, the special tax was never officially abolished, it's still on.

For 2011 the plan is to charge a special tax which is going to be 5% of the taxable value of the vessel so for mine it will be 5% of 35K (or thereabouts)

I'd love to be proved wrong, in the particular economic situation, I doubt it.

Over and out.

V.

Have to say from my experience I can only agree with Jim. I'm not there now - but I was there all through the entire saga of this special tax period, from the initial panic ruomours to its suspension and well beyond. I was never approached at any time for any payment whatever ( and yes my boat did fall within the set parameters) and neither have I met anybody else who did. This was in the Ionian - you may have had a different experience in Athens perhaps.

 

[jimbaerselman]

You may believe what you wish, the special tax was never officially abolished, it's still on.
V.

The tax was "gazetted", ie, published as law. It remains the law. However, its implementation was postponed by a port police signal, published on my website, sent to all port police units. This signal (quoted below) enabled a number of boats to avoid paying the demands - in May and June 2010. I haven't heard of any more vessels over 10m being asked to pay since then until your post brought the subject up.

Message ref 131010/05-10 sent 13 May to all Port Police, (non-professional translation):

RATED AS : NON RATED
SUBJECT: ONE OFF TAX ON PLEASURE CRAFTS ACCORDING TO ARTICLE 3 LAW3790/2009 (ref A143) AS IT WAS AMENDED AND VALIDATED WITH ARTICLE 4 PARAGRAPH 2 LAW3808/2009 (ref A227)
TAKING IN MIND JUSTIFIED INQUIRIES OF PORT AUTHORITIES UPON THE ISSUES OF THE SUBJECT AND CONSIDERING THAT THE NESSESARY LEGISLATURE FRAME IS STILL INCOMPLETE (ISSUING OF APROPRIATE ORDERS) LET IT BE KNOWN THAT INTERPRETATIONS ABOUT THE CONTROL ISSUES OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED TAXATION AND IN THE AUTHORISATION OF THE NEWLY APPOINTED BRANCH OF THE MINISTRY FUTHER INSTRUCTIONS ARE AWAITED STILL FROM THE MINISTRY OF FINANCE.
THE BRANCH XO COMMANDER PP KARAMPAMPAS K.

Bearing in mind that port police are inconsistent, it's possible that the particular place your boat is based didn't get the message. If so, It would be useful to know which harbour this is.

Maybe the signal has just recently been over-ridden, so that the law is once again alive. If so, this is important news. But before endorsing it, I'd like to check sources. Did you get advice from a marine tax consultant when buying? They are usually on the ball.

Either way, if you can give a bit more info (which port police office, any advisers you used, how much you paid, a copy of the receipt for the tax) I can follow this up.

 

[blueglass]

[QUOTE

Either way, if you can give a bit more info (which port police office, any advisers you used, how much you paid, a copy of the receipt for the tax) I can follow this up.[/QUOTE]

isnt it funny how rapidly and how often the "tax payers" always seem to evaporate when challenged for specific details.

 

[vas]

Either way, if you can give a bit more info (which port police office, any advisers you used, how much you paid, a copy of the receipt for the tax) I can follow this up.

isnt it funny how rapidly and how often the "tax payers" always seem to evaporate when challenged for specific details.

Blueglass,

since this goes to me, I'm afraid I said over and out and that was due to your rather insulting first contribution to this thread (which you later on edited). What I said stands, read carefully what I wrote in this thread, never said I had to pay the 2009 tax now, it was paid some time ago by the previous owner. A mate had to pay this for his P410 in Volos, Magnesia when he bought it in May.
Recommend you avoid 3rd Glyfada marina that's where I left to come to Volos last month and they wanted to see the receipt.

BTW, not much point keeping being arrogant, no reason whatsoever to prove something to you.

regards

V.

 

[blueglass]

Blueglass,

since this goes to me, I'm afraid I said over and out and that was due to your rather insulting first contribution to this thread (which you later on edited). What I said stands, read carefully what I wrote in this thread, never said I had to pay the 2009 tax now, it was paid some time ago by the previous owner. A mate had to pay this for his P410 in Volos, Magnesia when he bought it in May.
Recommend you avoid 3rd Glyfada marina that's where I left to come to Volos last month and they wanted to see the receipt.

BTW, not much point keeping being arrogant, no reason whatsoever to prove something to you.

regards

V.

I think you may be mixing up posts - haven't edited anything and my first (or any other posts) contained nothing remotely insulting.
Sorry if you took my last comment personally - not intended - its just that there have been so many threads on here with unsubstantiated examples of folks paying the special tax, but when asked for specifics - none have ever come up with them. its always a mate or someone in the pub or on the next pontoon.

 

[vas]

I think you may be mixing up posts - haven't edited anything and my first (or any other posts) contained nothing remotely insulting.
Sorry if you took my last comment personally - not intended - its just that there have been so many threads on here with unsubstantiated examples of folks paying the special tax, but when asked for specifics - none have ever come up with them. its always a mate or someone in the pub or on the next pontoon.

blueglass,
apologies, I indeed mixed up your post to someone else's reply.
10th May 2010 4.290euro were paid in Athens by the previous owner for my craft a Versilcraft Mystery 43ft (or as in the doc 12.95m)
Slightly more was paid for a Princess 410 in June 2010.

If its going to be of any use to you or anyone else, PM me for the PDF of the docs.

[OK, edited and removed the link, realised that there's the previous owner personal details in the doc]

cheers

V.

 

[jimbaerselman]

10th May 2010 4.290euro were paid in Athens by the previous owner for my craft a Versilcraft Mystery 43ft (or as in the doc 12.95m)
Slightly more was paid for a Princess 410 in June 2010.

If its going to be of any use to you or anyone else, PM me for the PDF of the docs.
V.

Thanks for that. 10 May 2010 was a "fair cop" - the "stop" signal went out on 15 May.

If the June guy had been a member of the Cruising Association he would have been warned about the signal, could have challenged and escaped the tax by producing a copy of the signal - as two boats based in the Saronic did.

It appears from what you say that the tax has not been resurrected. I keep track of all of this stuff to keep my web site advice on rules and regulations up to date. The June case probably slipped through due to poor internal communication and lack of knowledge by the owner of the current situation. Volos port police activity is dominated by commercial traffic, and they have little time for the niceties of leisure traffic concessions from the regulations.

I'm currently waiting to hear what has happened to the draft maritime law which was circulated in Greece this summer - it seems the bond panics have postponed activity for a while.

Any copies of relevant docs sent to j (dit) baerselman (at) gmail (dot) com would be most welcome.

 

[Hurricane]

blueglass,
apologies, I indeed mixed up your post to someone else's reply.
10th May 2010 4.290euro were paid in Athens by the previous owner for my craft a Versilcraft Mystery 43ft (or as in the doc 12.95m)
Slightly more was paid for a Princess 410 in June 2010.

If its going to be of any use to you or anyone else, PM me for the PDF of the docs.

[OK, edited and removed the link, realised that there's the previous owner personal details in the doc]

cheers

V.

Glad you two have sorted out any friction.
IMO, Bluegrass is a very respected member of this forum and I value his input.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Thanks for that. 10 May 2010 was a "fair cop" - the "stop" signal went out on 15 May.

Any copies of relevant docs sent to ***** (dot) com would be most welcome.

Virtuvas has very kindly sent me a copy of a receipt charged on the previous owner for his vessel for the "one off" Greek tax, which applied to vessels in Greece on 1 March 2009. It seems to me that this tax hit Greek nationals far worse than visitors to Greek waters - which I guess was the intention.

For a descriptions of the Greek regulations (and Italian, for that matter) see http://www.jimbsail.info/drupal/going-foreign/countries/greece , and /italy

During the London Boat Show I will be on the Cruising Association stand (A 139) from Sunday 8th to Thursday 11th, and willing to answer questions (and hear of your experiences) about "Going Foreign" - the rules and regulations affecting boats when they go to other countries.

Your feedback will be very helpful; it'll all go into the web site. Edited, of course!

 

[blueglass]

Glad you two have sorted out any friction.
IMO, Bluegrass is a very respected member of this forum and I value his input.

Why thank you Hurricane - not sure I deserve it but.....

Virtuvas - hadn't picked up on you being a Greek national - I think that explains a lot why you were singled out. As Jim says, you guys were the intended target all along and my commisserations on that .

 

[vas]

Why thank you Hurricane - not sure I deserve it but.....

Virtuvas - hadn't picked up on you being a Greek national - I think that explains a lot why you were singled out. As Jim says, you guys were the intended target all along and my commisserations on that .

I'm indeed Greek, although with all these idiots in charge and their foul acts, I don't know how long I'm going to be happy and proud of being Greek

No worries, it is indeed a law for us Greeks, I guess they wouldn't mind getting some extra cash in the kitty from you lot, but we'll see how they get on with all the "Ektaktes eisfores" now on houses, cars, boats, salaries and the list goes on...

so happy xmass everyone, even with a ever increasing hole in our pockets and no way to plan ahead...

cheers

 

[MapisM]

Your feedback will be very helpful; it'll all go into the web site.

I had a look at your webpage for Italy, and you might wish to amend the following:
1) the reduction based on the boat age has been confirmed, but for 15 years and over it's 45%, not 40%;
2) the half rate for sailboats applies regardless of length;
3) the total exemption is for boats on the hard, regardless of whether they're undergoing maintenance or not. Actually, if they are undergoing maintenance without being lifted, I think they must still pay - though this was not specified, afaik.

As a side comment, I think that in its final version, the new tax is quite reasonable.
The real problem is that in spite of that, some boaters will move elsewhere, even if they would eventually spend more (higher mooring costs, higher transfer costs to/from marina), just as point in principle.
Give anyone an easy way to avoid paying taxes, and they will. And I mean anyone, regardless of nationality.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

As a side comment, I think that in its final version, the new tax is quite reasonable.

Depends on your point of view. €10 a day sounds reasonable if you are short term visitor but if I was permanently moored in Italy with my 16.5m boat, I would pay a charge of €3650 per year less 15% and I don't think thats reasonable at all. Yes you are quite right; whether people think its reasonable or not, it is the natural instinct of everyone to avoid paying it if they can. This reminds me of the tourist tax that was introduced in Sardinia a few years ago which appeared reasonable but drove many boating visitors away.
My boat is currently in Monfalcone and I will be spending a lot of money this winter on maintenance and servicing there. Thanks to this tax, I won't be back in Italy next year on principle and thats a loss to the Italian economy. As jfm says, there really is no point in taxing movable assets