New Greek "Duty" on Yachts Announced

[Tony Cross]

I won't try to argue with these numbers but you are still forgetting the winter months when real liveaboards (like wot me and Vic are) continue to contribute to the local economy and Greek taxes whilst charterers do not.

 

[Tranona]

I won't try to argue with these numbers but you are still forgetting the winter months when real liveaboards (like wot me and Vic are) continue to contribute to the local economy and Greek taxes whilst charterers do not.

Yes, you do, but it is no different from many other seasonal tourist destinations, and you can see the difference in level of activity at the end of April every year when all the shutters come off and the working population in the island hotspots double or treble to get ready for the tourism influx. Opposite effect in the Alps every November!

 

[sailaboutvic]

I wonder if all the yards/marinas and chandlers would agree with you that private boat contribute very little to the local economy if there was a mass exit of private boats .
How many charter boat is there in the Prevaza compare with private ?
How many in Gouvia Marina or Kalamata even lefkes where there a big Sunsail base, still a lot more private boats other then Athens Marina the percentages of private boat compere with charters are much more .
private boat contribute very little so you want us to believe?
Mmm tell that to the Turkish people now most have moved out .

 

[sailaboutvic]

I won't try to argue with these numbers but you are still forgetting the winter months when real liveaboards (like wot me and Vic are) continue to contribute to the local economy and Greek taxes whilst charterers do not.

Tony I would ague , hardly any thing that charter company make , be it 1000 or 4000 a week Goes into local economy .
And as for Greek charter company , well we all know how Greek company love to pay there taxes don't we .

 

[Tony Cross]

Yes, you do, but it is no different from many other seasonal tourist destinations, and you can see the difference in level of activity at the end of April every year when all the shutters come off and the working population in the island hotspots double or treble to get ready for the tourism influx. Opposite effect in the Alps every November!

That's certainly true of the tourist tavernas, gift shops, etc. but the 'real'tavernas and shops that stay open all winter and which are used by liveaboards pay taxes to the government just as well. And I am in a tourist town.

 

[Melody]

Lets ensure facts don't get in the way of emotion.

One average charter yacht over a year is occupied by 4 people for 150 days - 600 people-days.
Their average spend on food and local services is €100 per day.

That's €60,000 per boat over a year coming into the local economy - just from people's local expenditure on food, drink, mementos, nightlife.

Makes a live-aboard budget per boat rather a tame affair.

I've ignored the cost of getting people from airport to boat and back, typically €1,000 per boat load per year. And the cost of local airport turn-arounds. And I quite expect the local per boat yacht support costs to be similar. More wear and tear for charter, made up for by bulk discounts.

150 days would be a minimum. Most charter yachts would expect to be chartered for more than that each year. You are thinking only in terms of what customers spend when they get here. They have to charter the yacht in the first place which will be several thousand each week. I really don't think there is any comparison between what a private boat puts into the Greek economy compared to a charter boat.

From what some have said, the charter industry in the Ionian appears to be a little different from elsewhere in Greece. Some of the companies that have been mentioned are foreign owned, whereas most of the charter companies I know about are Greek owned. In the Athens area they don't employ foreigners generally, as they want people who speak Greek, and I've certainly not come across live aboard boats in Athens marinas with people working for charter companies. There are foreign cleaners, certainly, but most have lived here for years. We employ Albanians, for instance, but they are Greek residents.

The charter companies have their own maintenance people, for sure, but all the ones I know are Greek or Albanian. It may be different in the Ionian, but if they are employing people in Greece they must be paying tax and IKA for them or it wouldn't be legal. The office staff in all the charter companies I know of in Athens are Greek or married to Greeks.

Although most charter income comes in over 9 months it is spent over 12 months on wages, rent, insurance, yacht maintenance etc. and I'd say the vast majority of the money goes into the Greek economy directly or indirectly.

 

[Melody]

Tony I would ague , hardly any thing that charter company make , be it 1000 or 4000 a week Goes into local economy .
And as for Greek charter company , well we all know how Greek company love to pay there taxes don't we .

I'm sorry but I think you are misinformed. The charter industry is actually quite tightly regulated and is not one where you can easily get away without paying what you are supposed to.

Charter yachts come under the special taxation regulations that are applied to all Greek flagged shipping. Apart from VAT and IKA they have a very small taxation burden - not worth trying to dodge. But all charter owners will pay VAT. The PP have to stamp every charter agreement prior to embarkation and they send a copy of the charter agreement directly to the tax office. VAT is calculated on that and checked against your returns. If you don't pay IKA on your staff you run the risk of big fines.

The annual tax on yachts is issued in the same way that car tax is issued and you can be asked to show proof of payment. Every time a charter yacht goes in or out of a boatyard it has to have paperwork from the PP and all staff who work on the boat must be covered by the companies insurance and pay IKA or the boatyard won't let them in.

I don't know where you get the idea that charter income doesn't go into the local economy. I belong to the Greek Professional Yacht Owners Association which represents hundreds of owners of charter yachts and I can't think of a single member who doesn't have the majority of their income going into the Greek economy.

Its actually pretty hard NOT to put all your income into the Greek economy these days We still have capital controls so taking money out of the country or buying goods from overseas is extremely difficult. It seems that there are a lot of foreign charter companies in the Ionian who may perhaps get paid in another country but that isn't typical of the charter industry in the other sailing areas in Greece, where it is mainly Greek companies that operate.

 

[Melody]

I wonder if all the yards/marinas and chandlers would agree with you that private boat contribute very little to the local economy if there was a mass exit of private boats .
How many charter boat is there in the Prevaza compare with private ?
How many in Gouvia Marina or Kalamata even lefkes where there a big Sunsail base, still a lot more private boats other then Athens Marina the percentages of private boat compere with charters are much more .
private boat contribute very little so you want us to believe?
Mmm tell that to the Turkish people now most have moved out .

Locally private boats may be important, certainly, but their contribution nationally is very small in comparison to charter yachts.

If there is anyone on here with a private yacht that is putting 50-100K into the Greek economy each year, please speak up, because that is the amount our boats each contribute.

Few charter yachts winter in the Ionian because it is damp. They mostly come back to the Athens / Lavrion area where it is drier, where there are plenty of tradesmen to work on the boats, and less chance of them being damaged in storms than in some other places. The yard we've used for many years has about 95% professional yachts. It's more expensive than some of the others as it has proper earthquake-proof standing and metal cradles. A lot of private boats seem to prefer to use cheaper yards.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Locally private boats may be important, certainly, but their contribution nationally is very small in comparison to charter yachts.

If there is anyone on here with a private yacht that is putting 50-100K into the Greek economy each year, please speak up, because that is the amount our boats each contribute.

Few charter yachts winter in the Ionian because it is damp. They mostly come back to the Athens / Lavrion area where it is drier, where there are plenty of tradesmen to work on the boats, and less chance of them being damaged in storms than in some other places. The yard we've used for many years has about 95% professional yachts. It's more expensive than some of the others as it has proper earthquake-proof standing and metal cradles. A lot of private boats seem to prefer to use cheaper yards.

There a lot of charter boat in the whole of Greece but there many many more private own boats and I not only talking about the Ionian , it would surprise me if numbers wasn't more then 9:1 and that's before you start counting the Italian , Turkish Croatian based boats that just come over for some weeks cruising .

we spend in the region of 18k a year a avg year , it's only July and we 10k down already , so get off your high horse and stop tell us that private boats don't hardly put anything into the local economy compare with charter boat .
Come the end of the charter season and there not a charter boat In Sight , us private boat are still spending and putting money into the local economy.
If Greece need money , charter market is a good place to increase taxes as you seen to be doing so well .

Remove the private boats out of Greece let see if the charter market will keep all the boat yards and Marina alive , let alone all the small shops and restaurant on all the small islands .

 

[sailaboutvic]

I'm sorry but I think you are misinformed. The charter industry is actually quite tightly regulated and is not one where you can easily get away without paying what you are supposed to.

Charter yachts come under the special taxation regulations that are applied to all Greek flagged shipping. Apart from VAT and IKA they have a very small taxation burden - not worth trying to dodge. But all charter owners will pay VAT. The PP have to stamp every charter agreement prior to embarkation and they send a copy of the charter agreement directly to the tax office. VAT is calculated on that and checked against your returns. If you don't pay IKA on your staff you run the risk of big fines.

The annual tax on yachts is issued in the same way that car tax is issued and you can be asked to show proof of payment. Every time a charter yacht goes in or out of a boatyard it has to have paperwork from the PP and all staff who work on the boat must be covered by the companies insurance and pay IKA or the boatyard won't let them in.

I don't know where you get the idea that charter income doesn't go into the local economy. I belong to the Greek Professional Yacht Owners Association which represents hundreds of owners of charter yachts and I can't think of a single member who doesn't have the majority of their income going into the Greek economy.

Its actually pretty hard NOT to put all your income into the Greek economy these days We still have capital controls so taking money out of the country or buying goods from overseas is extremely difficult. It seems that there are a lot of foreign charter companies in the Ionian who may perhaps get paid in another country but that isn't typical of the charter industry in the other sailing areas in Greece, where it is mainly Greek companies that operate.

So now you telling me all the charter company income is accounted for ? Oh come on Melody , who you kidding .

Yes all charter boat are are logged in and out with the PP , but that's where it stops .
How many people in the Piraes yards are being paid with black money , and where do you think that Money coming from .
things many have tighten up over the last two years or so , but the charter company have had it easy for years ripping off Greece .
How many jobs are done in cash .


I personal can tell you of one company who had the contact for haul out at Kos Marina some years back a very big Greek charter company starting with K who would only at that time pull out private yacht if they paid him in cash .
And in then days private yachts also had to get permission to get hauled out from the PP so there was records

 

[sailaboutvic]

Locally private boats may be important, certainly, but their contribution nationally is very small in comparison to charter yachts.

If there is anyone on here with a private yacht that is putting 50-100K into the Greek economy each year, please speak up, because that is the amount our boats each contribute.

Few charter yachts winter in the Ionian because it is damp. They mostly come back to the Athens / Lavrion area where it is drier, where there are plenty of tradesmen to work on the boats, and less chance of them being damaged in storms than in some other places. The yard we've used for many years has about 95% professional yachts. It's more expensive than some of the others as it has proper earthquake-proof standing and metal cradles. A lot of private boats seem to prefer to use cheaper yards.

Your talking about just two areas out of the whole of Greece .

 

[sailaboutvic]

I'm sorry but I think you are misinformed. The charter industry is actually quite tightly regulated and is not one where you can easily get away without paying what you are supposed to.

Charter yachts come under the special taxation regulations that are applied to all Greek flagged shipping. Apart from VAT and IKA they have a very small taxation burden - not worth trying to dodge. But all charter owners will pay VAT. The PP have to stamp every charter agreement prior to embarkation and they send a copy of the charter agreement directly to the tax office. VAT is calculated on that and checked against your returns. If you don't pay IKA on your staff you run the risk of big fines.

The annual tax on yachts is issued in the same way that car tax is issued and you can be asked to show proof of payment. Every time a charter yacht goes in or out of a boatyard it has to have paperwork from the PP and all staff who work on the boat must be covered by the companies insurance and pay IKA or the boatyard won't let them in.

.

You coming over as if your hard done by , and so you should pay taxes , you making a mint out of the charting yachts .
Once again if this tax come in we has private boats visiting a country are penalise and having to pay a tax while charter company's yacht get it at a reduce rate , and you want us to fell sorry for you , I don't think so .

In your own words . ( very small taxation burden) while an private owner of a 14 meter boat will have to pay 1400 euros to keep it in Greece .

 

[sailaboutvic]

Has this thread been turned into an charter v private boats and how little private boats money matters to the local community .
Let's get some thing straight , charter them self do spend an large amount each year,
but only an few places see the benefit of this money ,
usually landfall within an 7 days sailing range .and only certain harbours ,
Where the rest of us cruise not only use these places but go to places where only the odd charter boat goes if any ,
where our little money we spend or so we are led to belive , make a big different to the local life's .

 

[Tony Cross]

Has this thread been turned into an charter v private boats and how little private boats money matters to the local community .
Let's get some thing straight , charter them self do spend an large amount each year,
but only an few places see the benefit of this money ,
usually landfall within an 7 days sailing range .and only certain harbours ,
Where the rest of us cruise not only use these places but go to places where only the odd charter boat goes if any ,
where our little money we spend or so we are led to belive , make a big different to the local life's .

And I'd agree with this too. There are NO charter companies on Crete, it's much too windy for the little darlings. We still manage to fill up the marina here in AG Nik every summer and winter. Rethymnon takes in a fair few too, and Chania can often be impossible to get in to. None of these boats are charter boats but they all contribute to the local economy. On Crete at least it's Charteres 0 - Liveaboards A lot!

 

[jordanbasset]

Getting away from the live aboard v charterers and ok early days and only talking about the Ionian but pleasantly surprised that the harbours that were free last time are still free plus the hundreds of anchorages. Only been three weeks but am happy the Greece I remembered has not changed to much. looking forward to the rest of the summer.

 

[jimbaerselman]

And I'd agree with this too. There are NO charter companies on Crete, it's much too windy for the little darlings. We still manage to fill up the marina here in AG Nik every summer and winter. Rethymnon takes in a fair few too, and Chania can often be impossible to get in to. None of these boats are charter boats but they all contribute to the local economy. On Crete at least it's Charteres 0 - Liveaboards A lot!

I don't question that live aboards contribute significantly to some locations. But there are only a few hundred live-aboards. There are many more visiting yachts though.

I last looked at Greek "boat park" stats in Greece 18 years ago, after 15 years in the Greek charter business. Then, out of 50k to 70k boats over 8m (motor and sail), about 4k to 5k were charter, and about 5k were not Greek flagged. Melody may have more up to date data.

This suggested that there were a similar number of boats being chartered as privately owned and visiting.

Tranona and Melody were quite right. I only talked about the contribution that crews made to the local economy, and ignored differences in boat operating costs. That's because differences in boat operating costs between private and charter operation are small compared to differences in personal spend by crews over the year.

It's to ensure this tourist income that charter operations have tax incentives - as does all Greek tourist accommodation.

Melody, yes, there are differences between Athens charter support and Ionian. Ionian yacht services were long dominated by ex-employees of flotilla companies who saw the opportunity to fill a big gap in local yacht service skills. These guys are long term tax-residents of Greece, running businesses which can't risk complaints about tax evasion, or avoiding employee payments. They're now in competition with local Greeks who've grown up in the charter trade since 1980 . . . when I started there!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Jim
""(I don't question that live aboards contribute significantly to some locations. But there are only a few hundred live-aboards. There are many more visiting yachts )""

Firstly I and others have always been talking about private boats , only people who want to discount what us private boats owners contribute , trying to make the amount of boats small by keep on about liveaboard.
But at last I glade some one acknowledge that private boat contribute towards the local economy .
why just some locations , that I can't work out Jim because private boat are spread right across Greece where charter yacht only in some location .
If you wish to use that argument that you could say charter yacht only contribute to only some location .

Jim
""I last looked at Greek "boat park" stats in Greece 18 years ago, after 15 years in the Greek charter business. Then, out of 50k to 70k boats over 8m (motor and sail), about 4k to 5k were charter, and about 5k were not Greek flagged. Melody may have more up to date data.
This suggested that there were a similar number of boats being chartered as privately owned and visiting. ""

Jim , If we take the figure you just given on how many private boat are In Greece , which I feel is well underestimated ,but let's leave that to one Side .

If you take a year mooring fee of just 2000 euros a boat , (which is very little in most cases , ) that's 10,000,000 euros if my sums are right , that's without hauling out and in , presser washing , parts and then the maintenance . Of the boat , yes I agree some like me do our own maintenance , I would let a so called Greek engineer anywhere near my boat , but many do , and the work is left for the yard to do ,
Add that to the figure and then what these owners , friends and family spend over the summer months and tell us private boat contribute very little to the economy.
And that's just 5 k boats .without counting the boats that visit from Turkey , Italy Croatia and once just passing through .

why are people suggesting private yacht contribute very little to the Greek economy is beyond me .
But then we only need to look who are making these claims .

 

[Tony Cross]

Actually I don't disagree with the notion that charterers bring in more revenue than liveaboards. I think I've said that already. I also don't think the Greek government would shed a single tear if all the liveaboards, or even all the privately owned and foreign registered, yachts left Greece. But that's because they have no idea who we are or how important we are to many local economies. If all the foreign flagged private yachts left a fair number of small businesses would be in trouble, not least the marina here - and more than a few tavernas and bars, especially in the winter. Does the Greek government care. Almost certainly NO.

 

[charles_reed]

During the last 3 months sailing, in the N Aegean, about 2% of the boats I've seen have been charterers. The argument about whether private owners or charterers offer the biggest input to local economies appears misplaced - in the Ionian I'd guess charterers are easily the more important.
I'm somewhat amused by the kindergarten obsession with "fairness" in taxation - as most economists aver a good tax is one that is easy to collect.
I'm still waiting for the collection system for this "circulation" tax being set up, the thing has been on the books from my first year in Greece - set up by the right-wing government, mangled by Pasok and now entering a 5th year of circulation as a draft.
My mooring/port dues for the last 93 days of cruising around Greece has been €193, and most of that was spent @ Porto Carras. About €2/day, including water and electricity.That does exclude the winter ashore, lifts in and out.

Apart from the ghastly weather, I couldn't afford this boat in the UK.
If one dislikes the prospect of spending €1400pa, there are many steps one can take - get a smaller boat, leave Greece or try evasion.

 

[Caladh]

During the last 3 months sailing, in the N Aegean, about 2% of the boats I've seen have been charterers. The argument about whether private owners or charterers offer the biggest input to local economies appears misplaced - in the Ionian I'd guess charterers are easily the more important.
I'm somewhat amused by the kindergarten obsession with "fairness" in taxation - as most economists aver a good tax is one that is easy to collect.
I'm still waiting for the collection system for this "circulation" tax being set up, the thing has been on the books from my first year in Greece - set up by the right-wing government, mangled by Pasok and now entering a 5th year of circulation as a draft.
My mooring/port dues for the last 93 days of cruising around Greece has been €193, and most of that was spent @ Porto Carras. About €2/day, including water and electricity.That does exclude the winter ashore, lifts in and out.

Apart from the ghastly weather, I couldn't afford this boat in the UK.
If one dislikes the prospect of spending €1400pa, there are many steps one can take - get a smaller boat, leave Greece or try evasion.

Porto Carras, Charles ..................................!!!! I'd always thought your were a secret millionaire.