New build Sanlorenzo SL96A 2024

[billskip]

On the flip side, you’re radiating heat from the water constantly, you need stupendous insulation on all your HW pipework. Works best on high occupancy structures, where hot water is frequently drawn. That's a ‘don’t try this at home, folks’. Unless you have 13 children. On a boat, yes it saves water, but you’d be burning 20% more to heat it. Thank the Lord for calorifiers.

About 35yrs ago this "instant hw" system was in some new build housing development's, a return hw pipe with pump, easily isolated.
many changed to 7kw electric instant hw
htrs furthest from supply.
Yes it saves water on a boat, but it's the necessity to be comfortable that's important.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

About 35yrs ago this "instant hw" system was in some new build housing development's, a return hw pipe with pump, easily isolated.
many changed to 7kw electric instant hw
htrs furthest from supply.
Yes it saves water on a boat, but it's the necessity to be comfortable that's important.

The times I’ve seen it used were in houses in excess of 20 mill. I guess if you can afford that, the inefficiency isn’t worth worrying about. And on a boat, you’re mostly using waste heat anyway.

 

[MapisM]

And on a boat, you’re mostly using waste heat anyway.

If you're referring to heating domestic water with a loop coming from the engines cooling circuit, you're not going to find that in any serious boat, this one included, obviously.

I used to have in my boat one of those so-called "marine boilers" where domestic water can be warmed either with an AC element or with the engines loop, and disabling the latter is one of the first things I did after buying the boat.
Devil's work, from which it's much better to run rather than walk away!

 

[billskip]

you're not going to find that in any serious boat,

What is a serious boat?

 

[Bouba]

What is a serious boat?

If you have to ask....then you can’t afford one

 

[Portofino]

We went through this on another thread where I said something along the lines of “ bigger boats don’t have calorifers “ Got my head bitten off .
What I meant and later explained it’s with serious size engine s .You could I guess request these extra engine take off s and there will be a grey transition area .Size , boat wise .

Even mine doesn’t .Thanks for the back handed compliment MapishM .Must be a “ serious boat “

The engines also stuffed with decent electrotwackery in terms of monitoring a lot of which requires algorithms .Alarms are thrown if a sensor drops out of a range and also within a time frame . Not just EGT s and load guys .

So if you were tap an additional circuits into the HE cooling and said circuit was MASSIVE ( running large vol pipes a long way to the calorifer) it will sap heat away , or turned around take time for that motor to reach certain temps within certain ranges = trip a alarm. Unless a lap topped equipped tech were to dial this away by altering said algorithm.

Also if you think about it where on the block would you send the cooler water back to be heated , it’s rtn . With a tiny block say a 5.5 L it’s immediate cooling difference will be fairly equally distributed so s not to really effect any sudden temp difference between jugs .Where as a massive say V 16 might end up with one jug over cooled , running a slightly lower temp than the rest which isn’t gonna do any gaskets any good .

So as marine diesels get bigger the calorifer s drop out .

Also it means positioning the tank in the ER , which is bulky and that space is better utilised by some other machnary.
Not to mention trying to insulate any pipage sufficiently , if the tank was remote.
Then MapishM s point if understood it the risk in terms of if an internal pipe corroded in the water heater matrix , ending up compromising the main motors cooling circuit.

I know Volvo pioneered this , but little boats in scando countries with no shore power ( remote anchorage etc ) then sure optimise the engine heat .But because Volvo did it , like outdrives maintenance and IPS it’s doesn’t mean it’s OK .

HPY every one.

 

[jointventureII]

The hot water circ pump is really quite a gamechanger. We've had them on all the boats I've worked on bar one.

It might just seem like impatience but in practical terms it can actually save quite a lot of water - the example given was the transom shower and this is probably the best one - it really can take a while / lot of water for it to run hot without the circ pump. On the only boat I've worked on that didn't have this pump, whoever was on swimmer guard-boat duty had to advise on the radio when it looked like people were going towards the big boat and run the shower until hot.

I don't know if it was related (I suppose it could be due to a number of factors) but there was also almost no calcium build up on the heating elements on circ-pump installed boats vs the boat with no circ pump.

 

[jfm]

Yup on this hot water thing, as many have said this is a loop of constantly circulating hot water that repeatedly leaves the hot water tank, goes around the loop, and returns to the tank. Therefore hot water is available instantly at any tap, no matter how far from the tank.

There are pros/cons and apart from the nice convenience of this system, which is the reason for having it (see #667 above), none of the pros/con actually matters. Yes there is heat loss from the loop, even though it is insulated, but as said above less water is wasted and because all the water (whether from dock or the sea) on this boat will go through RO (Spot zero) the energy saving from not having to re-make the wasted water outweighs the heat loss. So I see this system as a win win, but it isn't worth worrying about much and the pro/con analysis isn't worth the brain ache.

As mapism says in post 663, the hot water is made electrically on this boat - there is no calorifier loop taken off a main engine jacket. That sort of loop would be a very bad engineering choice on a system like this with much distance twixt engines and hot water tanks, and at this size of boat almost no builder (apart from maybe a UK builder) would fit that. The stuff written by Porto in post 666 about affecting engine sensors/EGT/whatever is -as ever- 100% pure garbage.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I didn’t mean to cast aspersions on your pro/con analysis, as you say it’s a no brainer in this context. Just that, though the convenience is beyond doubt, in another situation it might be a bad choice. Fantastic photos, fantastic build, thanks so much for sharing it all.

 

[jfm]

You are not alone in confusing the two

I'm not confusing anything. I specified bronze, and Sanlorenzo said they would be doing that anyway - they would have laughed if I asked for anything else.

Instead of egg suckingly telling me about the name "DZR" you might want to read it again yourself: the R word is merely "resistant",

Besides, this isn't just about corrosion. Bronze has ballpark 1.5x the strength of brass (whether DZR brass or not). So I don't buy your theory that DZR is "just as good" as bronze, but each to their own of course on that.

There is no way a boat like this (built to RINA class) is going to be built with DZR or composite fittings, if anyone even makes them in the sizes required for the bigger fittings.

 

[jfm]

Edit

Looking at those pumps and pipework again, you say they are for black and grey water. Presumably your loos are all fresh water flush and you don't have seawater in the galley, so only fresh water and waste will run through them and then be removed by shore based pumpouts, or if discharged at sea through normal seacocks. If that is the case then unlikely ever to have to deal with seawater and plated brass bodies for the valves would be OK. The actual seacocks (if any) should of course be either DZR, bronze or composite, particularly the threaded fittings which are what causes issues of dezincification if they are 60/40 brass.

Correct that WCs and galley are freshwater but urine is as bad as seawater for corrosion.

 

[jfm]

I didn’t mean to cast aspersions on your pro/con analysis, as you say it’s a no brainer in this context. Just that, though the convenience is beyond doubt, in another situation it might be a bad choice. Fantastic photos, fantastic build, thanks so much for sharing it all.

No aspersions received Yes indeed this hot water loop might be a bad choice in another boat, and perhaps in all boats half the size. I'm only thinking it is a good choice in this boat, for reasons of user convenience and not wasting energy intensive RO-made water

 

[Tranona]

Correct that WCs and galley are freshwater but urine is as bad as seawater for corrosion.

Urine is not a problem for dezincification as it is the salt in seawater that turns it into an electrolyte and so starts the galvanic action. Lots of ordinary brass used in domestic plumbing where there is urine.

Another alternative for the isolation valves would be 316 although that still has the (unlikely) issue of crevice corrosion in the threads if not properly sealed. It is possible those valves are 316 as it is difficult to distinguish between that and plated brass from photos.

 

[jfm]

Do you have the bateau permis Hauturier ?

I don't have any French issued tickets. I just carry RYA-issued ICCs for 24m LLL (power and sail), and RYA yachtmaster theory+practical. I think that's ok though I have never been spot-checked

 

[jfm]

I don't know MapisM. I think they are Tides, but I'll check when I'm there (in 2 weeks). I'm 100% happy with Tides - they work well in the clean Med. On my last boat, 10 years and 1000 hours, only Tides seal ever wept, in year 8, so I just slid another seal on = 10 minute job. I dont know the shaft dia either - will find out. It will be in the 80-90mm ballpark I guess. Engines develop 6,000 lbft (8,000Nm) torque, 3:1 reduction, = 18,000 lbft/24000 Nm through the shaft.

Update on this topic: the shaft seals on this boat (SL96A) are made by Microtem in La Spezia, Italy. They are face seals not lip seals, so they are similar to Fluiten rather than Tides.

Microtem website is here Home - Microtem

and video here

 

[jfm]

By the way, in post 648 you can see white plastic donuts in the ceiling, to hold the ceiling panels up. This is the Italian Fitlock system - new as of a couple of years ago. Gone are the days of having to follow a sequence/order when removing/installing the ceiling panels - now each one is independent, and removed by a very hard pull using those sucker handles that glass installers use. Obviously a very big advance on 3M Dual-Lock. Very clever product worth knowing about when doing jobs on any boat:

 

[jointventureII]

By the way, in post 648 you can see white plastic donuts in the ceiling, to hold the ceiling panels up. This is the Italian Fitlock system - new as of a couple of years ago. Gone are the days of having to follow a sequence/order when removing/installing the ceiling panels - now each one is independent, and removed by a very hard pull using those sucker handles that glass installers use. Obviously a very big advance on 3M Dual-Lock. Very clever product worth knowing about when doing jobs on any boat:

They're good but be patient / tell the crew to be patient if and when you need to remove one as they are stronger than the wood they're attached to, at least that was the case on the SL118!!

 

[jfm]

They're good but be patient / tell the crew to be patient if and when you need to remove one as they are stronger than the wood they're attached to, at least that was the case on the SL118!!

Thanks for the tip - I'll go very carefully

 

[MapisM]

You could I guess request these extra engine take off s and there will be a grey transition area. Size, boat wise.
Even mine doesn’t. Thanks for the back handed compliment MapishM .Must be a “ serious boat “

Yep, we already debated this. And yep, indeed there are engine take offs in your MANs (as well as in mine, which are bigger).
They just happen to be disconnected from the heater - which might be an original Amati's choice, and if it was, I agree with it.
But they could also have been disconnected by some previous owner (as I did on my boat), unless you know better.
Ref. the MTU monsters in jfm's SL, I can't be positive, but I'd be slightly surprised if they wouldn't have (plugged) in-out connections somewhere along their closed cooling circuit.
That has nothing to see with the fact that they will never be used, for several good reasons - none of which are related to engines sensors, anyway.
If that would be the case, why would MAN continue to provide take offs also in their latest common rail engines, which rely on all sort of electronic gizmos?

Last but not least, ref. boat seriousness, I'm glad you appreciated my indirect compliment, but don't get too excited.
There's plenty of other much more important boxes that in my books should be ticked, to qualify a serious boat.
Like for instance being able to drop the anchor in an emergency without risking a crew member life, just to name a very basic must-have.
Does the Viking 92 (no less!) with a laughable flush deck recently beached in FL ring a bell?

 

[MapisM]

in another situation it might be a bad choice

I'd be curious to hear which situation you have in mind, because imho having domestic water completely disconnected from the engines is always the best choice, from a technical viewpoint.
I fully appreciate that in a smallish boat mostly used without running the genset (or with no genset at all), warming domestic water with the engine(s) can be a necessity.
But that isn't a matter of good vs. bad choices, it's just a necessary evil triggered by lack of alternatives!