Sticky Fingers
Well-known member
@jakew009 that’s fascinating! Thank you for taking the time to write this.
New build Sanlorenzo SL96A 2024
- Thread starter jfm
- Start date
Alicatt
Well-known member
In 1992 we did some limited CAD during the first year of the ONC Multidisciplinary Engineering using AutoCAD in 2D and in limited 3D, was handy for reading drawings and understanding what was required but never used it in my working life.
@jakew009 those drawings are great, as a CCTV surveyor for an international security company things like your drawing were just starting to enter the market when I retired in 2005.
I've made radio controlled remote CCTV, ones using WiFi networked as well as fiber optic and laser for sending and receiving the images and control of the CCTV
@jakew009 those drawings are great, as a CCTV surveyor for an international security company things like your drawing were just starting to enter the market when I retired in 2005.
I've made radio controlled remote CCTV, ones using WiFi networked as well as fiber optic and laser for sending and receiving the images and control of the CCTV
benjenbav
Well-known member
@jfm - Just catching up. Thanks for the amazing insight into the building of this beautiful ship.
On 3D modelling - I’m probably right at the bottom of the skill spectrum that Jake has explained so clearly but even I have had some fun doing 3D modelling using SketchUp. Templates there are a bit more focused on the built environment (on land) and may not be fine enough to model engineering components satisfactorily, but good for practising the techniques for building a 3D model - lots of the equivalent of copy and paste, imho.
On 3D modelling - I’m probably right at the bottom of the skill spectrum that Jake has explained so clearly but even I have had some fun doing 3D modelling using SketchUp. Templates there are a bit more focused on the built environment (on land) and may not be fine enough to model engineering components satisfactorily, but good for practising the techniques for building a 3D model - lots of the equivalent of copy and paste, imho.
colhel
Well-known member
Whilst the more technically minded are being rewarded on this thread please remember there's a few of us more simple folk sat here thinking, "Wow, 9 toilets"
jfm
Well-known member
@jakew009 many thanks indeed for such a fascinating explanation. I realise it takes a while to write all that. Every day is a school day and that was a nice insight into the process and very well explained.
100% agreed on wiring harnesses. By the way on the connectorising point, doing harnesses in 3D like Princess isn't mutually exclusive vs connectorising using Deutsch connectors of course. My last two boats (Fairline 78s) were manually wired but still used plenty of deutsch connectors to enable building of subassemblies etc. The electrical guys there were pretty quick at manually crimping deutsch pins in the field/on the job.
On your point about not wanting to hack beautiful looms when a customer wants to add a new item, you're 100% correct and that is Princess's problem. Their harnesses are beautiful (if too expensive to make) but their lack of enthusiasm when someone buying a £9m boat (that being their top price ex VAT these days) wants a few customisations not on the tick box options list is a problem in my book. Sunseeker are fine, because they still wire their big boats "manually".
100% agreed on wiring harnesses. By the way on the connectorising point, doing harnesses in 3D like Princess isn't mutually exclusive vs connectorising using Deutsch connectors of course. My last two boats (Fairline 78s) were manually wired but still used plenty of deutsch connectors to enable building of subassemblies etc. The electrical guys there were pretty quick at manually crimping deutsch pins in the field/on the job.
On your point about not wanting to hack beautiful looms when a customer wants to add a new item, you're 100% correct and that is Princess's problem. Their harnesses are beautiful (if too expensive to make) but their lack of enthusiasm when someone buying a £9m boat (that being their top price ex VAT these days) wants a few customisations not on the tick box options list is a problem in my book. Sunseeker are fine, because they still wire their big boats "manually".
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Having had to supply 3D modelled wiring diagrams for construction in the past, it’s a fraught process. It takes an age, and then another age when something is changed or moved. And then when you get there to put it in, the builders will have encountered a practical hitch snd done something another way….
jfm
Well-known member
Yep!
Starlink maritime - the full fat version with 1tb / month of priority access then unlimited non priority access. Not that I will exceed 1 Tera.
Then it has peplink routers, with 6 SIM card capability but I will have 2 SIM cards initially. Heavy duty lots of data.
Then I have a Wi-Fi-as-wan antenna for use in ports. In my home berth Antibes they just installed new Wi-Fi.
It will have 2 SSIDs - one for me and IoT things, and one for everyone else. So I can manage consumption. I need good Microsoft teams video access for business use.
IoT includes Miele appliances (pointless…) and Samsung family hub fridge (quite useful - have this at home). But most importantly Garmin. The boat will have new Garmin 9000 screens where the external Wi-Fi connection is now gigabit snd through the main peplink router not a dedicated Garmin only Wi-Fi network. So I can connect to Garmin from home/office.
In terms of internet distribution there are 4 or 5 peplink Wi-Fi access points around the boat, wired to the router. And every fixed device (6 Samsung TVs, a geochron, and music) will be cabled to the router, not using Wi-Fi. I think there are 2x switches in the rack.
Quite a lot to get familiar with. I have all the gear but not much idea
. I have an outside firm doing maintenance on the IT, giving them remote access so they can tweak it when I ask. They are supplying the SIM cards or eSIMs. Based in Antibes area.
Obviously I have no sat domes going on the boat. No idea why people still spec them on boats that don’t need VSAT back up (ie everything sub 50m). They will very quickly become relics and look dated on 15-30m boats but that Kenny had not dropped yet with lots of people.
Starlink maritime - the full fat version with 1tb / month of priority access then unlimited non priority access. Not that I will exceed 1 Tera.
Then it has peplink routers, with 6 SIM card capability but I will have 2 SIM cards initially. Heavy duty lots of data.
Then I have a Wi-Fi-as-wan antenna for use in ports. In my home berth Antibes they just installed new Wi-Fi.
It will have 2 SSIDs - one for me and IoT things, and one for everyone else. So I can manage consumption. I need good Microsoft teams video access for business use.
IoT includes Miele appliances (pointless…) and Samsung family hub fridge (quite useful - have this at home). But most importantly Garmin. The boat will have new Garmin 9000 screens where the external Wi-Fi connection is now gigabit snd through the main peplink router not a dedicated Garmin only Wi-Fi network. So I can connect to Garmin from home/office.
In terms of internet distribution there are 4 or 5 peplink Wi-Fi access points around the boat, wired to the router. And every fixed device (6 Samsung TVs, a geochron, and music) will be cabled to the router, not using Wi-Fi. I think there are 2x switches in the rack.
Quite a lot to get familiar with. I have all the gear but not much idea
. I have an outside firm doing maintenance on the IT, giving them remote access so they can tweak it when I ask. They are supplying the SIM cards or eSIMs. Based in Antibes area.Obviously I have no sat domes going on the boat. No idea why people still spec them on boats that don’t need VSAT back up (ie everything sub 50m). They will very quickly become relics and look dated on 15-30m boats but that Kenny had not dropped yet with lots of people.
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BartW
Well-known member
Thanks JFM for the praising words, and for pitching my co
I don’t want to hijack this wonderful tread with my business, but your explanation on what Amptec does needs a tiny adjustment;
We hardly ever sell systems into night clubs; While it might be all the same for you
we sell and install systems in “high end” performance venue’s in Benelux,Equivalent to sydney Opera house, or Royal Alberthall, etc..
And Also to major touring company’s; many popular artists are currently touring with d&b sound systems (GE) and Digico mixing consoles (UK); some of the brands we distribute
One department of my comp does installation of radio and TV control rooms, and OB vans and another department does sales and installation of equipment at sound recording and editing studios’ for film and TVseries,
but back to this fascinating thread here, on which we are all so happy, just to be able to observe and discover all these un imagineable features and nice details,
I’m pleased to testify that I have a tiny bit of experience with Italian high quality yacht building on our 30yo boat,
but the details documented and explained on here continue to impress again and again,
let alone the finishing material choices and color schemes, ( carara marble, walnut slatted vineer,…) that are totally my cuppa !
@colhel- Collin, details of the FB party sound system will be documented and explained by Jfm or myself after delivery and installation.
BartW
Well-known member
For those interested,
since many years we use a similar product; Fastmount in our co in OB vans and on Blue Angel
Very Low Profile Range Archives - Fastmount™ Panel Mounting
we stock two low profile models,
one heavy duty with "strong" holding force, and another with standard holding force...
jfm
Well-known member
Thanks BartW. Great info. It’s an honour to have Amptec’s specification/ hardware on the boat. Yes I will post pictures/video in the summer , showing your Amptec system on the boat.Thanks JFM for the praising words, and for pitching my co
I don’t want to hijack this wonderful tread with my business, but your explanation on what Amptec does needs a tiny adjustment;
We hardly ever sell systems into night clubs; While it might be all the same for you
we sell and install systems in “high end” performance venue’s in Benelux,Equivalent to sydney Opera house, or Royal Alberthall, etc..
And Also to major touring company’s; many popular artists are currently touring with d&b sound systems (GE) and Digico mixing consoles (UK); some of the brands we distribute
One department of my comp does installation of radio and TV control rooms, and OB vans and another department does sales and installation of equipment at sound recording and editing studios’ for film and TVseries,
but back to this fascinating thread here, on which we are all so happy, just to be able to observe and discover all these un imagineable features and nice details,
I’m pleased to testify that I have a tiny bit of experience with Italian high quality yacht building on our 30yo boat,
but the details documented and explained on here continue to impress again and again,
let alone the finishing material choices and color schemes, ( carara marble, walnut slatted vineer,…) that are totally my cuppa !
@colhel- Collin, details of the FB party sound system will be documented and explained by Jfm or myself after delivery and installation.
Lots of my friends (and some DJs) are ready to have a go!
By the way, summer schedule is for the boat (and my brother’s new boat, which needs a thread of it’s own, and the chase boat) to be in Cagliari/San Pietro around 1 august, for a few days. More on that later. Xxxx
rafiki_
Well-known member
Actually, even in high volume car production, harness construction tends to be a manual process, built on a glorified peg board. These are built in low cost labour locations, and until the Russian invasion, Ukraine was the main centre for harness production in Europe. Following the invasion, there was a 3 week hiatus when harness production was resourced. If the process had been heavily automated, this would have taken considerably longer, while machines were located, dismantled and moved to the new location, from a very hostile environment. Generally 3-D CAD models are created for the harnesses, so that the full vehicle package can be assembled virtually, clashes and thermal challenges can be minimised. The harness suppliers take the drawings and make their peg boards.
One of the remaining issues with CAD is when different CAD languages are used. There can be issues with some of the geometry not translation across, and models needing a degree of rebuilding.
Apologies if I’m teaching Granmothers.
vas
Well-known member
brilliant discussion on parametrics, 3D modelling, etc re boats/industry/cars.
Having spent the best part of my life designing and teaching young architects various forms of CAD, 3D modeling and parametrics, and in order for someone following this thread to have a wider picture or where we're heading, note that all that is also valid in building construction and unsurprisingly is slowly moving down from the likes of fancy skyscrapers and free-form designs by Zaha Hadid, Frank Gehry et al, to normal non fancy square office blocks, governmental buildings and even (largish scale) housing.
I'm talking about Building Information Management/Modelling (BIM) and interestingly the reason is not so much sorting construction issues but managing the construction process and it's costs and most important maintenance and costs in use of the building. Think of the frame/cladding/doors/windows/el/plumb/hvac/finishes/fixed furniture/etc are included in a master 3D drawing which has a querying mechanism that gives you dimensions, weights, costs, itinerary per room/flat/storey/whatever. Furthermore maintenance dpt keeps track on when each fitting was last checked/replaced/failed/whatnot. The fancy name for that is digital twin but pre-production...
AFAIK, UK, some parts of US and DE demand BIM drawings of all publicly procured bldgs for this reason - obvs maintenance dept of the organisation receiving the newbuilt must be suitably trained but let's leave that for now
Further at the initial design stages and before construction begins its a brilliant way to impress a client using VR glasses in the office (used to be hours if not days of work in file conversions, new texturing, lighting, etc, now it's a simple 2-way comms plugin with some game engine like Unreal or TwinMotion) and let them explore and comprehend the design. Nothing new really, just getting easier, faster and therefore cheaper to implement!
Still hard work and integrating everything feels quite pointless to the designer, hence often done to the minimum acceptable level.
Back to boats, on such large and complex constructions like John's ship a large scale refit at year 10 or 12 would very much benefit from having all the drawings in a well integrated manner. However since the focus at SL is efficient production I have some doubts on how helpful that model would be down the road. OTOH, I'm sure John will have everything in his mind and will be able to instruct accurately the team on what he wants
cheers and apologies for the egg-sucking lesson to some in here
V.
PS. v.impressive project indeed John, missed the two previous Matches, hope I'll be able to see M3 in flesh at some point!
PPS. John, if you want to get you a student/new grad to work on the SL drawings producing a decent fully textured and layered digital twin of M3, let me know I'm sure I'll find someone willing to spend a couple of months in Antibes working hard
Having spent the best part of my life designing and teaching young architects various forms of CAD, 3D modeling and parametrics, and in order for someone following this thread to have a wider picture or where we're heading, note that all that is also valid in building construction and unsurprisingly is slowly moving down from the likes of fancy skyscrapers and free-form designs by Zaha Hadid, Frank Gehry et al, to normal non fancy square office blocks, governmental buildings and even (largish scale) housing.
I'm talking about Building Information Management/Modelling (BIM) and interestingly the reason is not so much sorting construction issues but managing the construction process and it's costs and most important maintenance and costs in use of the building. Think of the frame/cladding/doors/windows/el/plumb/hvac/finishes/fixed furniture/etc are included in a master 3D drawing which has a querying mechanism that gives you dimensions, weights, costs, itinerary per room/flat/storey/whatever. Furthermore maintenance dpt keeps track on when each fitting was last checked/replaced/failed/whatnot. The fancy name for that is digital twin but pre-production...
AFAIK, UK, some parts of US and DE demand BIM drawings of all publicly procured bldgs for this reason - obvs maintenance dept of the organisation receiving the newbuilt must be suitably trained but let's leave that for now
Further at the initial design stages and before construction begins its a brilliant way to impress a client using VR glasses in the office (used to be hours if not days of work in file conversions, new texturing, lighting, etc, now it's a simple 2-way comms plugin with some game engine like Unreal or TwinMotion) and let them explore and comprehend the design. Nothing new really, just getting easier, faster and therefore cheaper to implement!
Still hard work and integrating everything feels quite pointless to the designer, hence often done to the minimum acceptable level.
Back to boats, on such large and complex constructions like John's ship a large scale refit at year 10 or 12 would very much benefit from having all the drawings in a well integrated manner. However since the focus at SL is efficient production I have some doubts on how helpful that model would be down the road. OTOH, I'm sure John will have everything in his mind and will be able to instruct accurately the team on what he wants
cheers and apologies for the egg-sucking lesson to some in here
V.
PS. v.impressive project indeed John, missed the two previous Matches, hope I'll be able to see M3 in flesh at some point!
PPS. John, if you want to get you a student/new grad to work on the SL drawings producing a decent fully textured and layered digital twin of M3, let me know I'm sure I'll find someone willing to spend a couple of months in Antibes working hard
Hurricane
Well-known member
JFM
Your reply to Jake got me thinking.
You mention about IoT stuff.
I am in the middle of playing/installing Home Assistant.
Lots of fun integrating household items into a central home automation system.
Quite complicated and a bit "bleeding edge" but it does have some uses.
Loads of cheap IoT devices available these days.
Most of my integrations don't have much practical use - switching lights, monitoring fridge temperatures etc.
Everything I install, I make sure that the original method of operation still works as it used to.
I've just incorporated a Burglar Alarm into the system - all home made but using CCTV cameras.
If it wasn't for the link to Alexa/voice control, the reality is that Home Assistant wouldn't get any real use.
For example the home automation system controls the heating but we can also say "Alexa Turn On the Heating" or "Alexa Is the Heating On?"
Not for use on my boat though ....... yet
I'm guess that (like me) Home Assistant on your new boat wouldn't be much use.
Your reply to Jake got me thinking.
You mention about IoT stuff.
I am in the middle of playing/installing Home Assistant.
Lots of fun integrating household items into a central home automation system.
Quite complicated and a bit "bleeding edge" but it does have some uses.
Loads of cheap IoT devices available these days.
Most of my integrations don't have much practical use - switching lights, monitoring fridge temperatures etc.
Everything I install, I make sure that the original method of operation still works as it used to.
I've just incorporated a Burglar Alarm into the system - all home made but using CCTV cameras.
If it wasn't for the link to Alexa/voice control, the reality is that Home Assistant wouldn't get any real use.
For example the home automation system controls the heating but we can also say "Alexa Turn On the Heating" or "Alexa Is the Heating On?"
Not for use on my boat though ....... yet
I'm guess that (like me) Home Assistant on your new boat wouldn't be much use.
starfire
Well-known member
I've been 'playing' with home assistant for a few weeks, the intent was to monitor loft & outside temp/humidity, HA runs on a RPi4, with lbe thermopro sensors, it's morphed into a central heating monitor, running on a RPi pico.
Got me back into coding python, but the HA .yaml config is a pain.
Happy to compare notes, but perhaps on another thread.
John100156
Well-known member
Yes we have been working with 3D modelling and BIM with Architects in the UK working at GSK and Imperial College, etc., for years now (albeit I have retired now, so my son runs the MEPH Consultancy practice) . If all parties in the design process collaborate well and the Project Execution Plan (PEP) is well defined, it is immensely useful, particularly when coordinating numerous complex MEPH services in plantrooms and threading them throughout buildings.
We do not achieve practical completion until the final documentation is issued to the Client's BIM Managers for sign-off. It was a very slow start, due to the time, cost and resource levels required but its now commonplace in UK Construction.
It was good to see the modelling implemented on JFMs boat, it should mitigate many access issues usually encountered during construction and better maintenance access /record keeping.
Hurricane
Well-known member
OK - but I can't think how to make it "boaty".
I might be able to think of something though.
Mr Googler
Well-known member
“Alexa…..run bodgeflow”
“Alexa…put out 20m of chain”
a few ideas for you there to keep you busy
rafiki_
Well-known member
Vas, the bit about making BIM public in the UK sends the spooks into apoplexy.brilliant discussion on parametrics, 3D modelling, etc re boats/industry/cars.
Having spent the best part of my life designing and teaching young architects various forms of CAD, 3D modeling and parametrics, and in order for someone following this thread to have a wider picture or where we're heading, note that all that is also valid in building construction and unsurprisingly is slowly moving down from the likes of fancy skyscrapers and free-form designs by Zaha Hadid, Frank Gehry et al, to normal non fancy square office blocks, governmental buildings and even (largish scale) housing.
I'm talking about Building Information Management/Modelling (BIM) and interestingly the reason is not so much sorting construction issues but managing the construction process and it's costs and most important maintenance and costs in use of the building. Think of the frame/cladding/doors/windows/el/plumb/hvac/finishes/fixed furniture/etc are included in a master 3D drawing which has a querying mechanism that gives you dimensions, weights, costs, itinerary per room/flat/storey/whatever. Furthermore maintenance dpt keeps track on when each fitting was last checked/replaced/failed/whatnot. The fancy name for that is digital twin but pre-production...
AFAIK, UK, some parts of US and DE demand BIM drawings of all publicly procured bldgs for this reason - obvs maintenance dept of the organisation receiving the newbuilt must be suitably trained but let's leave that for now
Further at the initial design stages and before construction begins its a brilliant way to impress a client using VR glasses in the office (used to be hours if not days of work in file conversions, new texturing, lighting, etc, now it's a simple 2-way comms plugin with some game engine like Unreal or TwinMotion) and let them explore and comprehend the design. Nothing new really, just getting easier, faster and therefore cheaper to implement!
Still hard work and integrating everything feels quite pointless to the designer, hence often done to the minimum acceptable level.
Back to boats, on such large and complex constructions like John's ship a large scale refit at year 10 or 12 would very much benefit from having all the drawings in a well integrated manner. However since the focus at SL is efficient production I have some doubts on how helpful that model would be down the road. OTOH, I'm sure John will have everything in his mind and will be able to instruct accurately the team on what he wants
cheers and apologies for the egg-sucking lesson to some in here
V.
PS. v.impressive project indeed John, missed the two previous Matches, hope I'll be able to see M3 in flesh at some point!
PPS. John, if you want to get you a student/new grad to work on the SL drawings producing a decent fully textured and layered digital twin of M3, let me know I'm sure I'll find someone willing to spend a couple of months in Antibes working hard
henryf
Well-known member
Brilliant to see a catch up. I’m feeling the same stress I did on our build panicking about all the jobs that need doing and trying to mentally run through everything. My solution was to just let them get on with it. How your head copes alongside doing a real job I have no idea 
Anyway, good to see the royal underpants get their own dedicated washing machine.
A good move having spotless water. I can imagine it will solve a load of problems over and above making wash down easier. You could earn a few quid washing cars on the dock side to boost your pocket money at weekends as well.
Anyway, good to see the royal underpants get their own dedicated washing machine.
A good move having spotless water. I can imagine it will solve a load of problems over and above making wash down easier. You could earn a few quid washing cars on the dock side to boost your pocket money at weekends as well.