New Bavaria motor boat - Dealer and Bavaria not resolving challenges - any similar experiences or suggestions?

[stelican]

If the boat was sent to say Spain , would not The Spanish dealer be expected to cover the warranted work . Why are you asking me , I know fall.

They would more likely to be upset they had not sold the boat in the first place.

 

[nicho]

Whats a bilge ? Just asking - for a friend obliviously ...........

There’s a lot of it on here

 

[Rob H 37]

What a strange thread this is. Chap comes on with some issues but doesn’t say what they are.

People ask what the problems are.

Chap says he posted them several times on another forum but they got deleted then asks (on a motor boat forum) where he should post the issues with his motor boat.

Someone who firms pay 6 or 7 figures to have on their team says we need a bit of info before we (he’s not the only experienced bod on here) can advise (for free).

And still we are none the wiser as to what these “significant” problems are.

Meanwhile a few armchair “experts” take random shots into the dark.

I’m damned if I understand how this internet thing is supposed to work…..

Just to confirm that this isn’t AI generated I’ll type the banana here and say marzipan is lovely

Not sure what was missed:

- Warranties not been provided (Major issue as service due at 1 year and what if items come up in service requiring warranty cover)
- Multiple items of damage but been addressed:
Hull - damaged pre delivery and ignored,
Roof no solution provided,
Grill was replaced but wrong one sent and then ignored
....as I said in ensuring balance true feedback some items (control panel, missing items, seat, damaged teak etc have been replaced and pending the install but agreed in principal

Seems a bunch of folks think a condition of posting is sitting at laptop for 24hrs whic sadly I'm unable to do - but DO greatly apprecaite many of the comments and feedback.

 

[Rob H 37]

If the OP is shy at airing matters widely he could select his learned forum friend of choice and PM his concerns thereby keeping his concerns more private.

Many thanks and appreciated - happy to be open about the challenges.

Have been open and honest on every comment.

More importantly this is an open forum and Clipper Marine and Bavaria both more than welcome to comment if anything inacurate here, and though I'd rather they just fixed the long standing issues directly, if they fix here publicly then outcome is the key thing. LIkewise if these issues get resolved I'll update.

Why not. I'm on my mobile. Many posters queuing up to help you.y

wish more tech savvy and could resolve

 

[Portofino]

Why didn’t you buy it locally from the area dealer nearest to its intended berth ?
It would have been correctly pdi d and had its dealer eager to please ( maintaining local reputation ) on hand .

 

[benjenbav]

Not sure what was missed:

- Warranties not been provided (Major issue as service due at 1 year and what if items come up in service requiring warranty cover)
- Multiple items of damage but been addressed:
Hull - damaged pre delivery and ignored,
Roof no solution provided,
Grill was replaced but wrong one sent and then ignored
....as I said in ensuring balance true feedback some items (control panel, missing items, seat, damaged teak etc have been replaced and pending the install but agreed in principal

Seems a bunch of folks think a condition of posting is sitting at laptop for 24hrs whic sadly I'm unable to do - but DO greatly apprecaite many of the comments and feedback.

Hi - I may not have been following this quite as closely as I should but hadn’t realised the nature of the issues before.

Seems that they fall into the following categories, perhaps:

1. Manufacturing issues (parts missing or incorrect) - partially and inadequately addressed.

2. Failure to provide warranty documentation.

3. Damage - caused in transit?

4. Want of communication on the part of the dealer.

It seems to me that if the dealer would address #4, then you would be clearer as to whether you will be able to make meaningful progress on ##1-3 and whether you need to go legal - either with the dealer or another party - to try to achieve a resolution.

 

[jfm]

Why didn’t you buy it locally from the area dealer nearest to its intended berth ?
It would have been correctly pdi d and had its dealer eager to please ( maintaining local reputation ) on hand .

Each case has its own specific circumstances but there can be a million reasons not to do that. I have bought 6 new boats delivered to south of France, not from the local area dealer for the brand concerned. Now with nearly 20 years of hindsight I think I did the right thing in my particular (not unusual) circumstances.

 

[Pinnacle]

I have read through this thread from beginning to end. I have not found a comprehensive list of specific issues/faults/breakdowns and the dealers response/actions in respect of each item - which is what is needed if any of the knowledgeable posters on here need if they are to give good, relevant advice. Did I miss it or has the OP simply not provided it (in which case he will never get the advice/help he says he needs)?

 

[DavidJ]

Let’s try looking at the problems one by one.
1. Hull damage
Photo? Description?

 

[julians]

Deleted

 

[Skipper Felice]

Without knowing your details, I'd suggest that now is the time to:

Check your insurances for coverage of legal costs. If covered, call the insurance company for guidance on the procedure.

Prepare a proper case management (plan) that ultimately may involve lawyers.
Gather facts and evidence and organise them chronologically in a document. This is important, as solid evidence might dictate the outcome.

Familiarise yourself with the terms and conditions of the sales agreement.

Facts & Proff should include all agreements, rights, obligations and money. Plus, of course, all communication, where written is far better than oral.

Identify the right person in charge (dealer, probably backed by manufacturer?) and the escalation route.

Write a clear description, asking them to state how they will resolve issues and a deadline. Crucial as it will be the baseline for the agreement.

Follow up on the deadline, only mention legal action when you actually want to go that route, as empty threats will damage your credibility.


IMO.

Yes - THIS is the only way to go!

Not social media bla bla for nothing with 1000 clicks > go for proper - written - documentation. Back up with a laywer and do it over the appropriete business and law channels. I am sure, you will get good results.

 

[Seastoke]

Yes - THIS is the only way to go!

Not social media bla bla for nothing with 1000 clicks > go for proper - written - documentation. Back up with a laywer and do it over the appropriete business and law channels. I am sure, you will get good results.

Porto how are you doing.

 

[Refueler]

Its a thread of some age ! So we have no idea what has happened since end of 2023 ?

BUT .... lets consider who you are dealing with ..... and I will put on my Flak Jacket .... and relate a little story :

Bavaria entered the US Market and signed up dealership. Boats were popular and sold well ... but then the dealership ended up threatening Bavaria with legal action ... why ?
I'm dragging this up from memory - but the Dealers contract had a provision written in to allow a 2% Warranty value against purchase price - to cover warranty claims. This in effect cut the dealers avenue to claim excess from Bavaria. The dealers were left hanging out to dry - covering serious warranty issues.

See here the Class Action case :

https://casetext.com/case/bavaria-y...-gmbh-in-re-bavaria-yachts-united-states-lllp

Excerpt :

The agreement covered various topics including that BUSA could not be involved with Yachtbau's competitors. [Doc. 10, Ex. 2 ¶ 4.1]. Additionally, the Second Sailboat Contract provided BUSA "a discount of 2% as a lump sum consideration for all required warranty repair work performed by [BUSA]." [Doc. 10, Ex. 2 Annex 3]. The Second Sailboat Contract also contained provisions that required BUSA to perform customer service, warranty, maintenance, and repair work for the boats as requested by those who purchase the boats. [Amended Complaint ¶ 25]. BUSA was obligated to pay out of pocket for these costs and would be provided a 2% lump sum discount from BUSA's purchase price of the boat. Id. However, BUSA claims these repair costs greatly exceeded 2% of the retail price. [Amended Complaint ¶ 26]. BUSA alleges the design and quality of the yachts were not suitable for a United States customer and Yachtbau promised it would resolve the issues. [Amended Complaint ¶¶ 19–20]. As BUSA made the necessary repairs to the yachts, it alleges that the 2% became insufficient to cover all the manufacturing defects. [Amended Complaint ¶ 164]. The Second Sailboat Contract also contained forum selection and merger clauses stating: (a) "The exclusive place of jurisdiction for all disputes arising under or in connection with this Agreement shall be in Würzburg, Germany," and (b) "This Agreement replaces any prior agreements with respect to its subject matter in its entirety. There are not [sic] verbal side agreements." [Doc. 10, Ex. 2 ¶ 15.5; Doc. 10, Ex. 2 ¶ 15.2].
Now I have no idea if same form of contract was used elsewhere such as Uk ... but IMHO it is a bad way of doing business.

I believe that since the 're-organisation' of Bavaria - such contracts may not have been continued.

 

[Tranona]

Its a thread of some age ! So we have no idea what has happened since end of 2023 ?

BUT .... lets consider who you are dealing with ..... and I will put on my Flak Jacket .... and relate a little story :

Bavaria entered the US Market and signed up dealership. Boats were popular and sold well ... but then the dealership ended up threatening Bavaria with legal action ... why ?
I'm dragging this up from memory - but the Dealers contract had a provision written in to allow a 2% Warranty value against purchase price - to cover warranty claims. This in effect cut the dealers avenue to claim excess from Bavaria. The dealers were left hanging out to dry - covering serious warranty issues.

See here the Class Action case :

https://casetext.com/case/bavaria-y...-gmbh-in-re-bavaria-yachts-united-states-lllp

Excerpt :

The agreement covered various topics including that BUSA could not be involved with Yachtbau's competitors. [Doc. 10, Ex. 2 ¶ 4.1]. Additionally, the Second Sailboat Contract provided BUSA "a discount of 2% as a lump sum consideration for all required warranty repair work performed by [BUSA]." [Doc. 10, Ex. 2 Annex 3]. The Second Sailboat Contract also contained provisions that required BUSA to perform customer service, warranty, maintenance, and repair work for the boats as requested by those who purchase the boats. [Amended Complaint ¶ 25]. BUSA was obligated to pay out of pocket for these costs and would be provided a 2% lump sum discount from BUSA's purchase price of the boat. Id. However, BUSA claims these repair costs greatly exceeded 2% of the retail price. [Amended Complaint ¶ 26]. BUSA alleges the design and quality of the yachts were not suitable for a United States customer and Yachtbau promised it would resolve the issues. [Amended Complaint ¶¶ 19–20]. As BUSA made the necessary repairs to the yachts, it alleges that the 2% became insufficient to cover all the manufacturing defects. [Amended Complaint ¶ 164]. The Second Sailboat Contract also contained forum selection and merger clauses stating: (a) "The exclusive place of jurisdiction for all disputes arising under or in connection with this Agreement shall be in Würzburg, Germany," and (b) "This Agreement replaces any prior agreements with respect to its subject matter in its entirety. There are not [sic] verbal side agreements." [Doc. 10, Ex. 2 ¶ 15.5; Doc. 10, Ex. 2 ¶ 15.2].
Now I have no idea if same form of contract was used elsewhere such as Uk ... but IMHO it is a bad way of doing business.

I believe that since the 're-organisation' of Bavaria - such contracts may not have been continued.

Not sure why you are posting this as it is completely irrelevant to the OP who bought his boat long after those events from Clipper in the UK and then had it shipped elsewhere outside Clipper's area of operation. Unsurprisingly he is having difficulty getting work done (although he reports there is not much dispute about what needs doing), but as he seems unwillingly to actually explain what the difficulties are he is not getting much advice from other members.

 

[Bouba]

I took delivery of a brand New Bavaria motor boat in January from Clipper Marine. You expect a few teething problems but expect reasonable support in overcoming them swiftly (in line with the promis of premium service for a premium product that they give you when in the sales cycle). I have major issues that haven't been resolved by Clipper (Easy ones have), despite constant chasing (Which they constantly ignore) I am lucky if I get updates every month (weekly updates agreed - not received 1 on time), serious issues outstanding for MANY MANY months. Literally worst service, and worst experience in any industry. Reached out to MD for help to escalate the main points and still no resolution and after a great initial response from Bavaria MD, he dropped it like a stone when he realised it was another client getting a terrible experience - No one is accountable to resolve significant issues and your are left ignored. Has anyone had similar poor experiences and have any tips on getting a dealer to simply do what they said at time of purchase? Very grateful for anything that could help.

The whole ‘dealership’ system sucks.....it’s designed to work against the consumer.....the manufacturer says it’s the dealer’s problem....the dealer says it the manufacturer. Complain often enough and both will no longer communicate with you. Personally, I write directly to the owner or chairman of the board....quite often they will pass your letter down the line with a must take care of post it note on....this sometimes results in some work getting done.
Remember, boat salespeople are your best friends.....right up until the time your check is cashed

 

[Refueler]

Not sure why you are posting this as it is completely irrelevant to the OP who bought his boat long after those events from Clipper in the UK and then had it shipped elsewhere outside Clipper's area of operation. Unsurprisingly he is having difficulty getting work done (although he reports there is not much dispute about what needs doing), but as he seems unwillingly to actually explain what the difficulties are he is not getting much advice from other members.

I posted it as an indication of Bavaria and its history .. if that cannot be seen - then you now know.

 

[Refueler]

The whole ‘dealership’ system sucks.....it’s designed to work against the consumer.....the manufacturer says it’s the dealer’s problem....the dealer says it the manufacturer. Complain often enough and both will no longer communicate with you. Personally, I write directly to the owner or chairman of the board....quite often they will pass your letter down the line with a must take care of post it note on....this sometimes results in some work getting done.
Remember, boat salespeople are your best friends.....right up until the time your check is cashed

Not a boat but a case of failure of the manufacturer ....... despite contact with the 'top man'.

I bought a new 2.8i Capri Special ... one of the first with the LSD and 5 speed box. Driving from Portsmouth towards Brighton - passed Shoreham airfield and turned onto the roundabout .... driverside rear wheel came off and car slewed round - hit kerb and then stopped. Luckily no-one else involved.
Car was at side and traffic was still able to pass. People stopped asked if any help needed ...
I was member of RAC and called for assistance.
RAC guy arrived ... we took some photos ... he checked car and it was obvious it was a tow job with rear wheels off deck.
I made sure guy was logging everything as we could see the wheel was off due to drive shaft sheering at the brake back plate. Wheel had folded under car keeping it up off the road.
RAC towed the car back to the Ford Dealer in Fareham .. car was just 2 days short of 1 year ... so I was concerned about warranty ...

The RAC guy talking about cars towed .. and it turned out that my Capri had same shafts as the Granada ... and BOTH cars had similar batch fault. A number of shafts had failed similarly ... but Ford had apparently failed to recall.

We agreed that due to the Warranty aspect - on arrival at Ford Dealer late evening - we would deposit the car across the workshop doors and make sure the security watchman noted time / date of arrival.

Next day I was in the dealers and they accepted car under warranty.

Rear wheel / shafts / brake assembly
Front wheel strut assembly had been distorted by its hiting the kerb.

I was pleased and left them to their job. Next day I visited to see how things were. Car was in pieces but nothing happening. I asked the Foreman what was problem and he referred me to manager - who I knew well.
Manager told me that the Ford Area Rep had told them to stop work and Ford was refusing to accept as warranty work.

Manager - gave me contact details of Ford UK boss as he felt that no-one else could help ... his and others hands were tied by the Area Reps view that I had spun the car ...

The correspondence went on for about a month with every reply from Ford, like blood from a stone. The 'Boss' of course refused to communicate = passed it off to a lower level to deal with.
Finally I threatened to contact Esther Rantzen ... with the info about Granada's ... Capri's - no recall and faulty batch shafts. (I only had RAC guys word .. but later long after this scenario - it was confirmed by others in Auto Industry I knew).
I received a reply stating that the car would be transferred to Fords Special Vehicle Division - they were who put together the 2.8i .... and it would be at least 3 months of testing / investigation.
This appeared good news - but I was warned of it by various including that Manager .. once car was with them - they could do whatever / say whatever and I had lost my evidence.

In the end - I put it to Insurance and they rebuilt the car ... on return - I immediately put it up for sale - I no longer trusted it.

My former club racing guys and Ford mechanics I knew all pointed to the earlier 2.8i without LSD and with the 4 speed box - as the better car. I found one but 5 speed ... and yes a much better car to drive as it didn't have that useless LSD that tramped when turning at junctions etc. The LSD was a joke as it needed to be pre-loaded to do any good - which of course Ford never did.

BUT that wasn't end of story .... the replacement 2.8i soon developed the gearbox whine so common on them. Back to dealer who then changed the thin hydraulic oil for engine oil ... whine returned within a few days ... back to dealer ... who now put in a heavier oil .... few days and whine returned. In the end I gave up and had a 3rd party outfit near Heathrow fit a recon box .. which they had fitted the missing oil feed to. Ford of course only did this on the next model ... just tried to cover it by altering the oil spec ...

 

[Bouba]

Not a boat but a case of failure of the manufacturer ....... despite contact with the 'top man'.

I bought a new 2.8i Capri Special ... one of the first with the LSD and 5 speed box. Driving from Portsmouth towards Brighton - passed Shoreham airfield and turned onto the roundabout .... driverside rear wheel came off and car slewed round - hit kerb and then stopped. Luckily no-one else involved.
Car was at side and traffic was still able to pass. People stopped asked if any help needed ...
I was member of RAC and called for assistance.
RAC guy arrived ... we took some photos ... he checked car and it was obvious it was a tow job with rear wheels off deck.
I made sure guy was logging everything as we could see the wheel was off due to drive shaft sheering at the brake back plate. Wheel had folded under car keeping it up off the road.
RAC towed the car back to the Ford Dealer in Fareham .. car was just 2 days short of 1 year ... so I was concerned about warranty ...

The RAC guy talking about cars towed .. and it turned out that my Capri had same shafts as the Granada ... and BOTH cars had similar batch fault. A number of shafts had failed similarly ... but Ford had apparently failed to recall.

We agreed that due to the Warranty aspect - on arrival at Ford Dealer late evening - we would deposit the car across the workshop doors and make sure the security watchman noted time / date of arrival.

Next day I was in the dealers and they accepted car under warranty.

Rear wheel / shafts / brake assembly
Front wheel strut assembly had been distorted by its hiting the kerb.

I was pleased and left them to their job. Next day I visited to see how things were. Car was in pieces but nothing happening. I asked the Foreman what was problem and he referred me to manager - who I knew well.
Manager told me that the Ford Area Rep had told them to stop work and Ford was refusing to accept as warranty work.

Manager - gave me contact details of Ford UK boss as he felt that no-one else could help ... his and others hands were tied by the Area Reps view that I had spun the car ...

The correspondence went on for about a month with every reply from Ford, like blood from a stone. The 'Boss' of course refused to communicate = passed it off to a lower level to deal with.
Finally I threatened to contact Esther Rantzen ... with the info about Granada's ... Capri's - no recall and faulty batch shafts. (I only had RAC guys word .. but later long after this scenario - it was confirmed by others in Auto Industry I knew).
I received a reply stating that the car would be transferred to Fords Special Vehicle Division - they were who put together the 2.8i .... and it would be at least 3 months of testing / investigation.
This appeared good news - but I was warned of it by various including that Manager .. once car was with them - they could do whatever / say whatever and I had lost my evidence.

In the end - I put it to Insurance and they rebuilt the car ... on return - I immediately put it up for sale - I no longer trusted it.

My former club racing guys and Ford mechanics I knew all pointed to the earlier 2.8i without LSD and with the 4 speed box - as the better car. I found one but 5 speed ... and yes a much better car to drive as it didn't have that useless LSD that tramped when turning at junctions etc. The LSD was a joke as it needed to be pre-loaded to do any good - which of course Ford never did.

BUT that wasn't end of story .... the replacement 2.8i soon developed the gearbox whine so common on them. Back to dealer who then changed the thin hydraulic oil for engine oil ... whine returned within a few days ... back to dealer ... who now put in a heavier oil .... few days and whine returned. In the end I gave up and had a 3rd party outfit near Heathrow fit a recon box .. which they had fitted the missing oil feed to. Ford of course only did this on the next model ... just tried to cover it by altering the oil spec ...

Sir, you look like a man who would be interested in our all new Ford Electric Capri.....
New Electric Ford Capri: Coupe SUV | Ford UK

 

[Refueler]

Sir, you look like a man who would be interested in our all new Ford Electric Capri.....
New Electric Ford Capri: Coupe SUV | Ford UK

101% NOT !!

If I was to buy a Capri again .. it would be either another JPS Capri S Mk2 ... or the final Capri 280 ... if really serious - one of the first 2.8i with the 4 speed box and pepperpot wheels ...

Of course we could always go back to original Capri based on the old Corsair frame ...

 

[volvopaul]

Not a boat but a case of failure of the manufacturer ....... despite contact with the 'top man'.

I bought a new 2.8i Capri Special ... one of the first with the LSD and 5 speed box. Driving from Portsmouth towards Brighton - passed Shoreham airfield and turned onto the roundabout .... driverside rear wheel came off and car slewed round - hit kerb and then stopped. Luckily no-one else involved.
Car was at side and traffic was still able to pass. People stopped asked if any help needed ...
I was member of RAC and called for assistance.
RAC guy arrived ... we took some photos ... he checked car and it was obvious it was a tow job with rear wheels off deck.
I made sure guy was logging everything as we could see the wheel was off due to drive shaft sheering at the brake back plate. Wheel had folded under car keeping it up off the road.
RAC towed the car back to the Ford Dealer in Fareham .. car was just 2 days short of 1 year ... so I was concerned about warranty ...

The RAC guy talking about cars towed .. and it turned out that my Capri had same shafts as the Granada ... and BOTH cars had similar batch fault. A number of shafts had failed similarly ... but Ford had apparently failed to recall.

We agreed that due to the Warranty aspect - on arrival at Ford Dealer late evening - we would deposit the car across the workshop doors and make sure the security watchman noted time / date of arrival.

Next day I was in the dealers and they accepted car under warranty.

Rear wheel / shafts / brake assembly
Front wheel strut assembly had been distorted by its hiting the kerb.

I was pleased and left them to their job. Next day I visited to see how things were. Car was in pieces but nothing happening. I asked the Foreman what was problem and he referred me to manager - who I knew well.
Manager told me that the Ford Area Rep had told them to stop work and Ford was refusing to accept as warranty work.

Manager - gave me contact details of Ford UK boss as he felt that no-one else could help ... his and others hands were tied by the Area Reps view that I had spun the car ...

The correspondence went on for about a month with every reply from Ford, like blood from a stone. The 'Boss' of course refused to communicate = passed it off to a lower level to deal with.
Finally I threatened to contact Esther Rantzen ... with the info about Granada's ... Capri's - no recall and faulty batch shafts. (I only had RAC guys word .. but later long after this scenario - it was confirmed by others in Auto Industry I knew).
I received a reply stating that the car would be transferred to Fords Special Vehicle Division - they were who put together the 2.8i .... and it would be at least 3 months of testing / investigation.
This appeared good news - but I was warned of it by various including that Manager .. once car was with them - they could do whatever / say whatever and I had lost my evidence.

In the end - I put it to Insurance and they rebuilt the car ... on return - I immediately put it up for sale - I no longer trusted it.

My former club racing guys and Ford mechanics I knew all pointed to the earlier 2.8i without LSD and with the 4 speed box - as the better car. I found one but 5 speed ... and yes a much better car to drive as it didn't have that useless LSD that tramped when turning at junctions etc. The LSD was a joke as it needed to be pre-loaded to do any good - which of course Ford never did.

BUT that wasn't end of story .... the replacement 2.8i soon developed the gearbox whine so common on them. Back to dealer who then changed the thin hydraulic oil for engine oil ... whine returned within a few days ... back to dealer ... who now put in a heavier oil .... few days and whine returned. In the end I gave up and had a 3rd party outfit near Heathrow fit a recon box .. which they had fitted the missing oil feed to. Ford of course only did this on the next model ... just tried to cover it by altering the oil spec ...

Being a Ford Escort rally competitor I can feel your pain from all those years back , great story .