Motor Sailer - Macgregor 26X

[Guest]

Slip and leeway

having parrelleled with Mac26 ... I can honestly say that I made a better course than he did.
I have a heavy ponderous bilge keeler.
OK - he was probably a crap skipper / cox ...... but sorry - he slid .... describes it better than leeway !!

Another time I needed a tow into Hayling when the engine failed. A kind Mac 26 owner threw a line and offered ..... even though he had a plonking great O/bd on the back-end it skitted all over the place and in the end asked if he would take my crew ashore and leave me on the marsh...... aground. He honestly couldn't make it against the wind and weather with the high freeboard and my boat on tow behind.
I ended up anchoring / genny-ing my way back to the marina single handed .....

I don't knock the idea of them and they do a good job at what they are DESIGNED for ..... BUT to take them out of the design arena and plonk them into ocean category ????? To subject them and crews to N. Europe weather and waters ?? A boat as far as I am concerned designed for US Intracostal waters ??

Yer pays yer money etc.

For me there are better other boats secondhand and new that are more suited to our weather etc.

IMHO of course !!

<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/searider/

 

[Guest]

My Volvo V70 has 4 wheels and AWD

Not the same as a Mac26x ......

Only time I get water ballast in me Volvo is leaving the bloody doors open !!

Sorry ....


<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/searider/

 

[mighetto]

Re: bonkers & knockoffs

Well, I am not certain that you want to know about dribbly hulls. This is the
term Bethwaite uses to describe a Tasar hull form and it is the form of the
Mac26x. I think it correct to say the Mac26x has a dribbly hull.

Look, all sailboaters will need to come to grips with these kind of craft. They
actually do sail well and they are keeping folks in the sport rather than chasing
them off to play golf or power boat.

Mac26x Knockoffs are rumored to be under production in South America and
Poland.

Well respected down under folks also appear to be in the business. This URL is
worth discussing. It is as close to a Mac26x as I have seen.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mackmanboats.com.au/> Mach28</A>

• Water Ballast (though perhaps not movable)
• swing keel
• Rig launch and sail single handed
• Unsinkable
• Draft 250mm - sit on the beach
• Low Maintenance
• Trailer included
• Plus geat sailing performance and more...

http://www.mackmanboats.com.au/

This notion that any sailboat with an auxilliary is a motor sailer is an interesting
one. I suppose that any boat with a paddle is a paddle sailer./forums/images/icons/smile.gif Get real.

The above photo is meant to demonstrate how the objective analysis portion of
David Harding in PBO June 2003 can be misleading. I can agree with most
of it except for the proof that water ballast at floor board level rather than
deck top gives a boat a higher boom. The photo is of Murrelet, my pocket
cruiser. Her boom is no higher than the Catalina 30. Plus the boom could
be lower by forgoing a dodger. Harding should have noticed this. Water Ballast
is claimed by MacGregor Yachts to be its invention. I think actually a German
firm came up with it on sloops first. Furthermore it is my belief that water
ballast that is pumped from side to side is the result of race boat design rules
limiting the total amount of water that can be carried more than anything
else. Pumping on and off is the important movement. Stability is less with dual
tank systems.

Is this at all interesting? I mean I love chatting about the future of yacht
design. Really do think these kind of craft represent the best of what
modern know how can come up with. Plus this cods head mac tail
hull form is very traditional. The design is thinner than a working sailboat
but still traditional. Let me know. I will ckeck in tomorrow and see if the
puking is so vile that further discussion is worthless.

Take Care

Murrelet
Mac26x out of Olympia Washington USA
casting off





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[mighetto]

Re: Slip and leeway

Mac26x owners are often asked to tow other sailboats. I myself have
been asked. You are the first to suggest that a 50 hp motor would not
be enough to counter the ocean worthy freeboard on a Mac26x. Usually
this freeboard to high issue is something that comes up with sailing the
craft. The following is an example of the Mac26c

compare to the standing headroom Mac26x and Mac26m

The C is in the middle; the X in background and M forward. Not
really that much difference.

The thing that many forget about freeboard
is that it varies by heel. A wide sailboat with low freeboard at rest will
have more freeboard windward than the X or M. Plus she will have
dangerously low freeboard on the lee. Because the X presents roughly
the same freeboard to the wind at any angle of heel the hull can not
be used like a lever to knock her down like wide beam designs.

Under motor power, I do not see how the freeboard would be a problem
unless there were a full cockpit enclosure and no water ballast and foils
retracte. That would
be a ULDB configuration for the craft and yes she would get pushed by
the wind just like a small cabin cruiser powerboat.

This is the mac26x in full cockpit enclosure mode. These are
good old boats. You can not purchase them new. Of course we hope for new
production.





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[BrendanS]

Re: Slip and leeway

Most boats are asked to tow at some time or other. Has little to do with their make.

Your hapless wanderings do little for the forum, so I hope when you log in again, that what you see is distastless to you, and you don't bother too much in future

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[Guest]

Re: Slip and leeway

Sorry that your postings haven't changed my view after being on the end of a tow-rope .....

The tow was a waste of effort and to be honest even with full power applied - the experience would have been one that I would not like to repeat. I had to call it off .... it was a ridiculous situation with a novice owner relying on sheer power from his o'bd and being battered by slip / leeway that was simply unbelievable ....

Sorry but I will stay with my old design that pounds, gets me wet in a blow, creaks and groans etc. etc. but is built like the proverbial battle-tank.



<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/searider/

 

[Guest]

I think you missed the point ....

Each to his own and many like me do not take kindly to being told they are wrong.
Boats are very personal things and create endless hours of argument about one design vs another.

There are traditional wood boat people, there are traditional GRP people, there ae radical new design people, there are somelike yourself that apprecaite what you appreciate etc.

You cannot change views by the type of posting that is going on at moment ..... same as me. I think that boating is getting too techincally orientated and feel your postings are adding to that. But that is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

There are many out there that feel a nice heavy long keel form under their boat is best way to go ocean crossing - so who are you to argue ? Have you crossed the atlantic or pacific in a Macgregor ? We all know that past persons have crossed oceans in some ridiculously small boats and I admire their spirit but still think it daft .....
I have a 25ft Motor-sailer that literally is reckoned to be able to take any weather you can throw at it ..... but as soon as it gets blowy or rough - I stay in mate ..... I do not mess with the elements. I also own a racer that would put the proverbial all over your Mac26 ..... but I have 4 other experienced crew on it when we go out for the race .... ok in some weather that I prefer to stay warm and dry at home ....

So please do us all a favour .... stop justifying your purchase to everyone else ...... you made your choice ... so good for you, others made their choice and good for them.

OK ??


<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/searider/

 

[mighetto]

That is kind of like what David Harding says in the June 2003 PBO

The design is a bad compromise. And with that the prosecution rests

except then he adds objective analysis, voyages of discovery, and the motoring
mac sections to his article which is then followed by Jeremy Coles' article
"To the Scillies in a MacGregor." Thats Isles of Scillies.

Dear God, be good to me, the sea is wide and my boat so small... and
my MacGregor is very strong

Several months later when testing an Oden 820, Harding is right back in an
unrested condition chatting about Mac26x cruisers. The prosecution has not
rested. This model is in her prime. There is much to chat about. Do consider
chatting more.

I would like to get some clarification on the CE marking in the EU. It is my
understanding that CE marking is the job of the importer - That if Sharp Marine
wanted to they could slap a Category B or Category A on a Mac26m. There
might be additional equiment required but the current CE C marking makes little
sense in terms of judging a vessels ocean capabilities when all life rafts are
Category A.

I mean seriously. Think about that. If a vessel most real sailors
would never get into because they know they are better off in the foundering
vessel gets a Catagory A, doesn't that make all boats that are similarly
equiped and especially boats that float when swamped (like many multihulls and
Mac26x and m cruisers) of similar ocean capability?

There just is something about modern composit construction know how being
missed.

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[mighetto]

Re: I think you missed the point ....

I have a 25ft Motor-sailer that literally is reckoned to be able to take any
weather you can throw at it ..... but as soon as it gets blowy or rough - I stay in
mate ..... I do not mess with the elements. I also own a racer that would put the
proverbial all over your Mac26 ..... but I have 4 other experienced crew on it when
we go out for the race .... ok in some weather that I prefer to stay warm and dry at home ....

So please do us all a favour .... stop justifying your purchase to everyone
else ...... you made your choice ... so good for you, others made their choice and
good for them.

If you own a boat do you not love all boats? I am not here to ram my notions
of correct about boating designs. It is not I that coined terms like lead sleads and
sinkers. That was the job of the multi-hullers. We who prefer that a sailboat have
the feel of the sea rather than the feel of standing on land, must recognize that
those terms, while derogatory, have meaning beyond that.

Here is a list of 20 small sailboats
that have circumnavigated the world. I say they have proved something. But
many say - no just lucky. You need a bigger boat.

Thing is these small boats have done so (circumnavigated) more than once.
Is your boat one of them? Can we not learn what makes a good small ocean
voyager by studying them?

Alberg 30
Albin Vega 27
Alied Seawind 32
Bristol 27
Bristol Channel Cutter 28
Cal 20
Cap Dory 25D
Catalina 27
Contessa/J.J. Taylor 26
Contessa 32
Dana 24
Falmouth Cutter 22
Flicka 20
Frances/Morris 26
Nicholson 31
Pacific Seacraft 25
Pearson Triton 28
Southern Cross 31
Westsail 32

Then can we not recognize that reporting has improved in the last 10 years.
That there are supermarkets at the remotest ports of call.
That no seaborn accomodations are better for our loved ones than shore base
accomodations.
That performance is safety.
That harbors no longer are designed for sail only craft.

We honor sailors who came before us by preserving their craft and studying
their ways. I am please to report that the kind of discussions
at YBW.com and the kind of things discussed in PBO are the same things
sailors discussed 100 years ago at the end of the commercial age of sailing.

There is a connection. You do not need to ignore it just because of these
Clorox bottles from MacGregor Yachts. The notion that all boats forever must be
compromises is likely false. I think the Mac26x is showing that. Not that she
is perfect - but there is nothing preventing a fast sailboat from also motoring
fast. That has been proven with the Mac26x. The new no-compromise designs..
well that would be worth chatting about. But so is your boat. Can you tell me
about her? Do you mean motor sailer as in Fisher 30 or Newport 30 or do you
think any boat with an auxiliary is a motor sailer?



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[Twister_Ken]

RCD and CE

Minghetto,

You seriously misunderstand and are confusing two things.

CE is a marking required on almost any manufactured goods sold in the European Union, be it a steak knife or a baby carriage. It means that the product has been manufactured according to "Conformes Europeenes" - European Standards or Norms.

Leisure boats are categorised under the Recreational Craft Directive - a piece of nonsense which many decry. It does two things. Firstly, it establishes certain standards to which the vessel must conform. These can be as varied as conduits for electrical runs, the way that batteries are secured, the direction in which hatches open, size of openings above the waterline, etc. Secondly, it attempts to establish the seaworthiness of the design by varous mathmatical formulae which consider things like stability, speed with which a craft would (if at all) recover form a capsize, speed of downflooding, etc. The results of this latter exercise put the boat in a category from A (suitable for long voyages offshore in gale force conditions) to D (suitable for use only on inland or sheltered waters within x miles of a port of refuge). A fuller description of RCD categories can be found by using a search engine.

CE marks are issued by manufacturer who acknowledge that they manufacture to European normes. The RCD category is granted by EU-authorised bodies, after they have studied the plans and statistics for a vessel.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[mighetto]

Re: Slip and leeway

Sorry that your postings haven't changed my view after being on the end of a
tow-rope .....

No one likes to be towed. You are commended for even considering being towed
by a Mac26x. This kind of thing would be plastered all over the internet today
and you would have been imfamous. X boat owners are taught to tow from the
winches which are the strongest fittings topside and run the lines through fairlead
cleats.

The tow was a waste of effort and to be honest even with full power applied -
the experience would have been one that I would not like to repeat. I had to call it
off .... it was a ridiculous situation with a novice owner relying on sheer power
from his o'bd and being battered by slip / leeway that was simply unbelievable ....


Novice owner. Oh. When I was asked to tow, the 35 footer couldn't get a line
to me. We were in a very tight channel. I was operating in less than 6 feet of
water. I suggested that because the wind was favorable, that he sail and I
would stick close. That was all that really was needed. The great thing about
a sailboat is that you can often operate without a motor. That day a novice
became a Captain. He really was proud sailing under the rainbow bridge at
La Conner when he radioed us that he had things under control and a
mechanic waiting to help him dock.

Sorry but I will stay with my old design that pounds, gets me wet in a blow,
creaks and groans etc. etc. but is built like the proverbial battle-tank.

Why be sorry. Guzzwell of Trekka around the world prefers your kind of vessel
as well. He now owns a water ballasted sloop named Endangered Species but
still prefers the feel of a substantial keel. There is a notion that it may take
a life time to master a single craft. We may be moving to Linux from where I am
typing today and after 20 years of Windows, I suspect that I am always going
to prefer Windows.

The Idea that an experienced keel boater is going to get into a Mac26x and
be able to sail it and then might like it is just silly. A guy like you is going to
hate the feel of this kind of craft. But a dingy sailor, perhaps not. The new
racing designs are not interested in say Far 40 experienced sailors. They
prefer virgins that do not have to unlearn before they can learn. It is that
way with software as well. But there are a lot of power boaters that can
get into sailing owing to the power sailers. They may be virgins to sailing but
experienced boaters. I was that way 6 years ago. Seriosly the Mac26x is
my salvation. A worthy craft worthy of some respect.





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[mighetto]

Re: RCD and CE

CE marks are issued by manufacturer who acknowledge that they manufacture
to European normes. The RCD category is granted by EU-authorised bodies, after they have studied the plans and statistics for a vessel.

Thanks. I have dogpile.com searched this topic many times. The Mac26x is
granfathered when it comes to entering EU waters if the boat were built pre 1998
and can show such waters were navigated prior to 1999 (or something like that).
My boat - because it is not CE marked, A, B, C or anything, can not enter
european waters without an exemption for racing purpose. This kind of thing has
huge implications for ocean sailboat designs that power yacht builders have already
responded to. Lets say I want to take my boat to the Med for the Americas Cup
(AC) there will be several transport ships taking power yacts there in 2006. If my
boat is also taken, because she is not CE marked, she may be confiscated. More
likely is that the transport vessel will not even take her. My only option is to
join in some kind of race activety to get an exemption.

So. Here is the question. Have any inflatables that are not CE marked but are
used in EU waters been confiscated yet. We are seeing CE marks now on almost
all the new dinghies but hardly any new sailboats.

The entire CE marking and RCD will likely give way in a few years do you not
think? I mean the movable ballasted sailing machines have greatly changed notions
of stability. Plus there is as of yet no mechanism to upgrade a boat to the RCD
standard.

BTW the Mac26x has a mathematical limit of positive stability of above 115 when
ballasted. Folks have calulated it as high as 123. 105 is recommended for racing.
110 is granfathered for Sidney Hobart and 115 is the new SH standard. The Volvo
Ocean 70 and new ocean racing designs completely reject the math. They did that
just a few months ago. It made obsolete over night the TP52s which are required
to have 125. And I think it made bold those who had considered copying the
Mac26x.

Great topic. Someone should start a CE mark RCD thread or resurect one that
already exists. My conclusion is that CE marked boats should have higher resale
value. But others have concluded it is all bunko that will be undone in a few years.
Only the power boaters appear to take it all seriously here in the US. Well those
and dinghy manufacturers.


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[Guest]

Re: I think you missed the point ....

Sunrider 25 ...... forerunner of Colvic 26.

Heavy and bath tub hull with heavy bilge keels ..... it may only be 25ft but has a 40HP Perkins engine - so I may qualify for 'power-sailer' for want of a better term. No - Motor Sailer suits her well.
She carrys about 45% of the sail area of my racer .... which has a deep fin and skeg ....... one day I will have the pics on a server that allows posting on the forum !! Alternatively e-mail me on :

nluther@solent-life.co.uk

and I'll send you a few picsof the 3 boats I own ..... a) bilge keel motor-sailer in GRP, b) fin keeled racer in pine on oak, c) twin lifting keel GRP weekender - which by the way was designed as a motor boat or sail without need for ballast ......

So as you can see from my boats + having been a Marine surveyor for some years - as well as owning my marine survey co. / plus Petro-chemical lab gives me possibly an insight not always available to others ??

Ease the sheets and take a calm tack ...... thats my way.


<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/searider/

 

[tome]

Re: RCD and CE

Mighetto me old mate!

Could you answer the following simple numerical questions without any tedious text pastings:

1 How long have you owned your MacG26x
2 Whats the longest non-stop sea passage you've completed (in nautical miles)
3 What course were you steering
4 What was the strongest wind encountered (knots) and what was the wind direction
5 Whats is the fastest speed you've achieved under sail

It's a little unfair not to invite you to state an opinion, so paste onto this if you would.

What is the optimum towing configuration for a McG26X providing assistance to a fellow Ocean sailor?

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[mighetto]

Re: RCD and CE

Mighetto me old mate!

Could you answer the following simple numerical questions without any tedious text pastings:

1 How long have you owned your MacG26x six years - salt, once trailered
2 Whats the longest non-stop sea passage you've completed (in nautical miles) 60 in the Mac26x
3 What course were you steering West and SouthWest
4 What was the strongest wind encountered (knots) and what was the wind direction
20 from behind - gusts perhaps 30
5 Whats is the fastest speed you've achieved under sail 11 knots measured by GPS cross current; sustained for over 20 minutes

It's a little unfair not to invite you to state an opinion, so paste onto this if you would.

I am not a thrill seaker. Mac26x cruises have made passages much more
impressive than I ever will. The trips to Alaska are alway persuasive. We must
have strong hulls in the Pacific Northwest to operate at 20 knots under power
because of logs and bergs. That strength is what makes the vessel such a
strong ocean sailboat. This is a photo of the bow of a Mac26x whoes captan
pefers running the boat in foul weather and then enjoying good weather
on shore in wilderness.

What is the optimum towing configuration for a McG26X providing assistance to
a fellow Ocean sailor?

Water skiers are towed off a briddle attached to the stainless cleats. For towing
another boat you are instructed by dealers to run line from those same cleats to
the winches which are meant to hold such loads. An unballasted Mac26x can be
lifted by her chainplates. so that is another stong point.

My boat was moved by the harbor master from the guest dock I sailed to after
an engine clutch dog failure to my rather tight - I would not attempt to sail into -
slip. This was just last October. Anyway. We tied both the motor lauch and Mac26x
together. The motor launch could not be made to steer. I had to steer from the
Mac26x.

With full extention of the centerboard and two rudders, your motoring
manuverability is just outstanding. These boats will turn in their own lengh by
alternating power backwards and forwards like other sailboats that get highly
manuverable designations.

I am not a dealer and have no connection to maritime other than relatives who
are also not dealers.

I am a former powerboater.

Can you chat about the PBO Test of the Mac26x? I suspect the author failed to
realize that the Mac26x is a hybred hull form like the Tasars. Power boat abaft the
beam but true sailboat forward.

You are able to choreograph about the boat in order to plane under sail with out
motoring assistence.

The coasts of California, Oregon, Washington State, and British Columbia are
coastal cruising areas where circumnavigators often have noted their worst
experiences. It really should not surprise folks that these MacGregor Yachts
with proper crew are so seaworthy.


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[jimi]

Re: RCD and CE

you're completely out your tree mate, not the full quarter .. 20 gusting 30 is not heavy weather, its a brisk sailing breeze .. put it out in sustained 40mph+ with breaking waves and I hope you've got good life insurance!

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[Guest]

Photos ..... tried

Fraid your isp refuses to accept the photos and sends it all back ....



<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/searider/

 

[ShipsWoofy]

Phony cruising pics

Since we are posting our cruising pics, which you have to believe because a photo never lies, I though a would add some from my log. Not to be outdone here is me sailing in the Antarctic.

And on last years cruise to China

And then across the South Pacific to Oz

As you can see my 26ft vessel, even though not the future of Ocean sailing, but she gets there in the end.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Woof</A>

 

[Ships_Cat]

Re: Phony cruising pics

I see that you have discovered the sea passage in to Ayre's Rock too ShipsWoofy. Many will not believe me when I tell them that it is there, now I have photographic proof - thanks.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[mighetto]

Re: Phony cruising pics

Phony Photos

It is worse than that. These articles that are really advertisements for a new class
of boat have me most upset. Take these TP52s. Best I can tell they have their
basis in the Santa Cruz 52. Thats a boat that went into production in 1992 and they
are suppose to be NEW??? Soon on TV. Compare and contrast with

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/boatreview2.html>http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/boatreview2.html</A> which will
not take payment for advertising let alone for a favorable article.


The phony story is very interesting. Bob Smith of Bruce Farr's office in Annapolis
USA, designed the SC52 with Bill Lee after determining that the market for large
grand prix racers was gone. 12 plus years later and Farr has a big vested interest
in the TP52s. One they are attempting to unload on Spain, I suppose. It is such a
farce.

Today if you use your TP52 for cruising it is called an SC52 or a TP53. This creates
the fiction of a new ocean design racing class called TP52s. That makes them look
like new. But, there is nothing new about them. They are a 14 year old one-
design. A very unsuccessful attempt at starting a one-design class at that.

In fact, in a movable ballast world these "Trans Pacific" boats are simply obsolete.
They carry so much lead (by modern standards) that they can not be considered
ocean race worthy (IMO). They are boats for lubbers - fellows who want sailboats
to have the feel of land when they are on them. Plus fully one third of the existing
boats were built for Atlantic, not Pacific racing. The falure of these lead sleds is
supported by Vic Maui race results just a few months ago and Farr's movement
into Ocean 70 movable ballast monohull design work. They sink when flooded
and their keels damage coral. The design fails to recognize the realities of
dredging. That work just can not be justified anymore.

We in the US were finally able to get TP52ers to admit that in another year there
will be less than 20 TP52s world wide. That really is after close to 15 years of
production. The SC70s on the Great Lakes in the US are a more promising ocean
racing design class.

Phony Phony Phony. So much about the sailing sport is phony. Half of what is
considered correct is not. Anyway. I post freely now here and there. What Roger
MacGregor has said about the Mac26x is far from phony. It is truth that some do
not want to hear or have you hear. I am happy to verify. There have been at least
six Mac26x Alaska Inside Passage makers. A big deal for an under 40 foot
monohull is just not so for these vessels.

Now do filter the above with my destain for Jim Teeters, strong supporter of
TP52s, and the man likely responsible for world wide notions of the Mac26x being
a baby killer. There have been no deaths whatsoever attributed to the Mac26x.
There were two children who died owing to a drunken operator on July 4th 2002.
The boat was never on trial for this. Jim Teeters tried to make it so, likely caused
MacGregor Yachts to halt production and then failed. We look for more production
in the USA and not just in Australia.

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