Mooring in astern

[alldownwind]

[ QUOTE ]
................... A boat with a crew being trained is circling the river whilst they get fenders and lines ready.................

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This bit says quite a lot! Ebb tide running, little wind, why go round and round in circles while preparing warps and fenders? Inablity to hold station against the tide? Inability of instructor to teach helm how to hold station?
Sorry... just a pet hate of mine..... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[Iota]

Re: IMHO

The Folly is well known for 'accidents' by the charter and under instruction boats. The tide can run fast and not where it would appear first. We sailed in yachts there 1986- 2005 and the last few years gave up on the Folly.

An amusing aside I did a refresher course in the autumn of 88 before the YM exam. As we approached the Folly pontoon and were holding the boat against tide we asked a boat if we could come along side... He seemed nervous so our training skipper told him we were a boat load of people who were doing our YM exam on the Saturday... He told to wait while he put extra fenders out /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I still think you were right knowing the water and the ability of charter / sea schools to cause damage as was demonstrated in your case.

They could have selected a different boat to go alongside at the end of the day.

Iota

 

[maxi77]

Re: IMHO

Well theres two good reasons not to sail in the Solent.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: IMHO

and anyway-- did not the harbour launch INSTRUCT her to go alongside that way eventually, when she sought to overide your stated preference???
Another aside -- I once had a Southern Sailing training boat try and raft onto me before I had even got my lines made fast. The first I knew of them coming alongside was a loud thump as one of their crew jumped into the cockpit with their stern line as I was pulling in on my own stern line... Presumably they wanted to get in the meal order queue before me. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[bedouin]

Re: IMHO

[ QUOTE ]
and anyway-- did not the harbour launch INSTRUCT her to go alongside that way eventually, when she sought to overide your stated preference???


[/ QUOTE ]
No - I'm sure the harbour master would never instruct anyone how to handle the boat. They might advise but I am sure they know better than to try to make it an order.

Had they done so they could have been held to be legally liable for any damage caused.

 

[charles_reed]

You did ask for an opinion

Sorry if you didn't like it - perhaps the leading-question format caused me to answer more bluntly than I should have..
First - subjectively, you might be chagrined at an 18-year old advising you how to drive - if the helmsman, who may well have had a commercial endorsement to his YM, had obviously been incompetent you may have been justified in suggesting an alternative.

Second - it does depend on the underwater configuration of the boat and if it had a long keel and an offset prop, you'd have been infinitely justified in requesting they turned around.
However, with a modern boat, with saildrive and spade rudder, DEFINITELY the better way to park is in reverse, under the conditions described.

Resultant, an offended instructor, probably murmurs about anally obsessive yotties and certainly an unfortunate impression for newbies.

If you wish to experience the true horrors of mishandled charter boats, Croatian waters in July and August are the benchmark.
At least, in the UK, the RYA does try to maintain some standards.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: IMHO

Hi Piers-- I take your point - but they certainly do instruct in Yarmouth and Lymington Town Quay on occasion.. my reading of the first post was that she sought the harbour launch's authority to overide the poster's request and that whatever his words were, they seemed to have sufficient authority to make her change her mind.
/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
PS-- is Bedouin back in the water?

 

[bedouin]

Re: IMHO

Bedouin has actually been in the water all winter - but not used due to the weather and the frighteningly long list of tasks I have to complete. Since the arrival of the junior cabin boy the amount of time I have had to spend on the boat has shrunk alarmingly.

 

[Lizzie_B]

Re: IMHO

Yep-- kids do that to sailing for a while.. my youngest has just fled the coop - hence 5 weeks sailing--- fingers crossed for the weather...Ooops-- thread drift!!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[SwedishLass]

Just learning all over again as new boat has a long keel. Seems doing anything in astern is an interesting challenge. At the moment I would not feel confident to attempt stern first manoeuvers in expensively confined spaces. I would by habit and handling stem the tide and ferry glide if possible. However previous boat handles in astern if the keels are down, if the keels were up that could be a very different scenario. I would be much more confident if wind direction dictated an astern approach.

For the majority of helms there may be reasons for doing it "that way". The change of plan from their custom and practise may indeed have caused the isssue as it was a manoeuver that was possibly not planned or prepared for. From the posts above opinion is divided on the correct approach and if it works, don't fix it. It is the helm's decision but perhaps without the confidence and experience to challenge other opinions.

 

[josira2]

Only the skipper knows how his vessel behaves going astern (mine's a b@@ch, but in some circumstances, it's still the best way), so give him the benefit of the doubt. No matter what the circumstances, the skipper is responsible for the consequences of his decisions and actions - so it's up to him which way he drives. At least he had the courtesy to ask (and someone was around to reply). In these situations, I favour manning the fenders and only offering advice when it's invited - usually over a post-mooring beer. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Sailfree]

As others have said a modern boat with a spade rudder handles fine astern.

I would prefer to always moor with bows into prevailing wind (irrespective of tide direction) as this stops wave slap on the suger scoop stern and if this was a different direction to an equal length boat moored alongside so much the better as it automatically staggers the masts.

If you add a bow thruster into the equation I would suggest you have more control over the boat going astern than forwards!

I would hate to think that they had been practising ferry gliding astern for the last hour and had got it near perfect and the accident occured due to their lack of practice doing it forwards but out of politness they wished to comply with your "strong" preference.

 

[mikemonty]

[ QUOTE ]
.... as I felt they would have more control.


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What made you think that they would have more control going ahead?
Put it in another context:
If it was an unpredictable shopping trolley with a wobbly wheel they intended to bring along the pontoon and tie to your boat, would you prefer them to push it up the pontoon or pull it?
Or another, if it was a model boat and they were propelling it with one finger at the stern, do you think they would do a better job pushing the stern or pulling it?

 

[Searush]

At slow speeds prop walk can have a greatly increased effect. Might this have been a reason to approach astern?

Personally, I have a river mooring with a permanent current, increased or slackened by the tide. EVERY boat in the river moors up bow into the current, whether on a quay berth or on a trot.

My boat is a Pentland twin keel with spade rudder, she goes well astern at speed, but at slow speeds it can be very tricky to accelerate or decelerate due to prop effect. I would be reluctant to try a slow stern first approach, even up tide.

 

[l'escargot]

Before I had a centre cockpit, I often used to moor bow to stern as it gives more privacy when sat in the cockpit - perhaps I am just anti social. He may also have been taking into consideration that he would be leaving on the flood and not wishing to reverse out of a potentially bigger raft. At the end of the day we are all responsible for manoeuvring our own boats in the way we see fit.

I wouldn't accept unsolicited advise from someone who thought that they knew a better way to handle my boat than I did - it is highly unlikely that they know my abilities or the handling qualities of my boat better than me. Or that they are indeed a qualified instructor. You probably did contribute to causing damage to the other boat by insisting that they carried out their second choice of manoeuvre because you wouldn't have wanted carry out their first choice, even though you go on to say you would be confident of succeeding. Perhaps he was as confident about reversing in as you would have been.

 

[roger]

Risk of rudder kicking over?

This may not apply to your boat but certainly does to mine. When I'm going astern I have to hold the tiller very firmly to make sure it doesn't slam over suddenly with total loss of control etc. This makes me very wary of anyone manouvering astern with any speed (through the water). I just feel things can go pear shaped very swiftly.