Modern, full/long keel and ideally cutter rigged

[geem]

You could do worse. Try short, heavy, shallow, vertical bilge keels...

I describe my Snapdragon as a tough little motorsailer but, for her size, she's comfortable and copes well with bad weather. Just forget about sailing to windward. Years ago when I was doing the Round the Island on other people's boats, I used to joke that if I took Jissel round and got in before the 2230 cut-off, I'd be handicap winner.

It seems like so many other things, "long keelers are old fashioned rubbish" "No they aren't, they're brilliant" Entrenched opinions won't be changed by argument, any more than you could argue Boris into a policy of nationalisation or Starmer into laissez faire capitalism.

Having no dog in the fight, I reckon both are right in their context. If I'm racing round the cans, with an occasional jaunt across to to France, in and out of marinas all the time, a lightweight fin that does what I want going backwards would be ideal; if As a middle aged couple going across oceans with no rush and the need to put up with gales at sea, that long keeler would be ideal, not as fast as the cruiser-racer, but less likely to throw me across the cabin when things get bumpy and better able to carry all the clutter a long-term cruiser accumulates, and, since I spend most of my time at anchor, being less nimble astern is far less of an issue. Saying one's better than the other is like arguing whether a Ferrari is better than a Land Cruiser. Driving down to a track day at the Nurnburgring , few would pick the Land Cruiser, but put it in a muddy field and it's a different story.

I dont disagree, but, the spectrum of cruising monohulls goes from long keel boats at one end to lightweight skinny finned keel wide ass boats at the other end. In between are all sorts of cruising boats. Everybody in the long keel group compares their boat against all those in the lightweight fin keel category and all those in the lightweight fin keel category compares them again long keelers. In my experience the best cruising boats are somewhere in the middle. If you are cruising single handed a Westerly Fulmar takes some beating. I have a couple of friends who have cruised them long distance singlehanded. They are conservative in every aspect but they make a great cruising boat.
My own boat leans towards the heavy end of the spectrum but she is deep fin and skeg. She is extremely well built to Lloyds 100A1. She is built to cruise long distance not sit in a marina. She wouldnt suit everybody's needs but she is perfect for our needs.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

If he wants a real classic relatively new cutter rigged but not quite long keel and relatively new ( if he can find one) a Valiant 50 if his pockets are deep enough, there is a very nice 2002 one on the market. There are shorter versions which are also quite nice but older.
They don't come cheap.

2002 Valiant 50 Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld

Valiant Yachts

If I were to go back sailing the 50 footer would be high on my list

 

[dom]

If he wants a real classic relatively new cutter rigged but not quite long keel and relatively new ( if he can find one) a Valiant 50 if his pockets are deep enough, there is a very nice 2002 one on the market. There are shorter versions which are also quite nice but older.
They don't come cheap.

2002 Valiant 50 Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld

Valiant Yachts

If I were to go back sailing the 50 footer would be high on my list

A lovely sea boat, but your suggestion also sparks a question.

Many/most traditionalists are fervent advocators of a high ballast ratios of which the Valiant 50 sports a number of 29%

How is such a low number justified?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

A lovely sea boat, but your suggestion also sparks a question.

Many/most traditionalists are fervent advocators of a high ballast ratios of which the Valiant 50 sports a number of 29%

How is such a low number justified?

You best ask the designer and the countless circumnavigators that have sailed them successfully around the globe. Perhaps they offer the best of both worlds.

 

[Laminar Flow]

A lovely sea boat, but your suggestion also sparks a question.

Many/most traditionalists are fervent advocators of a high ballast ratios of which the Valiant 50 sports a number of 29%

How is such a low number justified?

Quick sampling: Bav 32, 36, 38 all have less than 29%. Bav 44 has 31%.

Just in case you are barking up the wrong tree. Ballast ratio is not the only relevant factor.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Quick sampling: Bav 32, 36, 38 all have less than 29%. Bav 44 has 31%.

Just in case you are barking up the wrong tree. Ballast ratio is not the only relevant factor.

How very dare you link no mater how tenuously a Bavaria with a fine cruising boat like the Valient.

 

[dom]

Quick sampling: Bav 32, 36, 38 all have less than 29%. Bav 44 has 31%.

Just in case you are barking up the wrong tree. Ballast ratio is not the only relevant factor.

Hold off for a moment before getting all shirty!

As it happens I was thinking of the Bavs myself, and while ballast ratio is not the only factor it is an important one.

Now one doesn't want to go around bending reality to suit our personal beliefs, do we?

 

[ashtead]

If the Valiant appeals it rather looks like an overgrown Barbican 33 below which might be more in a suitable size range to find a berth.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

If the Valiant appeals it rather looks like an overgrown Barbican 33 below which might be more in a suitable size range to find a berth.

If you can afford the price you would find a berth. I assure you it's nothing like a Barbican 33, or Vancouver 34 for that matter having sailed in all of them.

 

[geem]

If you can afford the price you would find a berth. I assure you it's nothing like a Barbican 33, or Vancouver 34 for that matter having sailed in all of them.

Friends have a Valiant 47. Nice yacht. I think the 50 is a stretched 47.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Friends have a Valiant 47. Nice yacht. I think the 50 is a stretched 47.

Yes it is. A genuine long legged 200 mile a day cruiser.

 

[ashtead]

Once you start looking at this size you are in Jongert territory though surely?

 

[geem]

Yes it is. A genuine long legged 200 mile a day cruiser.

I think they kept the same keel as the 47 which Is why the ballast ratio seems low. The ballast ratio on the 47 is higher and the keel weight is listed as the same as the 47.

 

[dom]

I think they kept the same keel as the 47 which Is why the ballast ratio seems low. The ballast ratio on the 47 is higher and the keel weight is listed as the same as the 47.

Can you just imagine the "cost cutting", "built down to a price", "unsuitable for offshore sailing" comments if Bavaria did that! ? ?

Seriously though, a 29% ballast ratio in a shallow draught vessel seems quite low. On the other hand, a 125 degree AVS is quoted, this is an accomplished sea boat, and as a largish vessel it will be hard to knock down (a high STIXX I'm sure). In which context a 125 degree AVS is perfectly reasonable and would only equate to a few more seconds inverted following a capsize in a big sea.

 

[geem]

Can you just imagine the "cost cutting", "built down to a price", "unsuitable for offshore sailing" comments if Bavaria did that! ? ?

Seriously though, a 29% ballast ratio in a shallow draught vessel seems quite low. On the other hand, a 125 degree AVS is quoted, this is an accomplished sea boat, and as a largish vessel it will be hard to knock down (a high STIXX I'm sure). In which context a 125 degree AVS is perfectly reasonable and would only equate to a few more seconds inverted following a capsize in a big sea.

I am not sure I would call 1.91m as shallow draft

 

[dom]

I am not sure I would call 1.91m as shallow draft

Fair point, although it's very much in cruisy territory and well below the sportier offshore boats.

It is interesting also that the 50 is a later boat to the 47 and perhaps reflects an advancement of design in drawing a powerful and safe vessel with around somewhat lower ballast numbers. Assuming that that is, the cost savings of recycling the 47's keel were tangential to the decision which they probably were.

 

[ip485]

Can you just imagine the "cost cutting", "built down to a price", "unsuitable for offshore sailing" comments if Bavaria did that! ?

Of course Bavaria's are built down to a price, mind you. I dont mean this with disrespect, but I can never understand why some would argue a Bavaria at £400K is the same yacht at the same length as an Oyster costing £1m. I dont say they arent each capable of crossing oceans, but even to the extent you are paying for a name, you are getting some value for the extra £600K.

 

[geem]

Fair point, although it's very much in cruisy territory and well below the sportier offshore boats.

Its all relative. There are many successful American cruising designs that are shallower draft. By American standards thats deep draft.

 

[dom]

Of course Bavaria's are built down to a price, mind you. I dont mean this with disrespect, but I can never understand why some would argue a Bavaria at £400K is the same yacht at the same length as an Oyster costing £1m. I dont say they arent each capable of crossing oceans, but even to the extent you are paying for a name, you are getting some value for the extra £600K.

Of course a Bav is not the same boat as an Oyster. It’s not as bespoke, misses some lovely woodwork, thankfully avoids some of the dreadful (to me) purple moodlighting (?); but I digress. Oysters are great boats and so are Bavs, they’re just different. In terms of ultimate seaworthiness I’d rate them as much of a muchness but I can see that they appeal to very different markets.

 

[ip485]

Dom - Exactly. Each for there own.

I am not entirely convinced mind you when it does come to ocean passages even then every boat is the same. So many modern yachts for example have a balsa core - I am not convinced this is the ideal construction - but it is definitely more cost effective. Some of the light rigs are also undoubtedly adequate, but if pressed to the limit, I suspect some would fail well before others. In theory on some of the more costly blue water yachts you are also buying into a product that is probably more robust when the chips are really down.