Modern, full/long keel and ideally cutter rigged

[rotrax]

Like that!

Another American.

Their requirements appear to be different to European requirements, hence the substantial displacement/weight and long keels.

Horses for courses.

 

[rotrax]

Your post title is self contradictory. Nothing with a long keel can be described as modern. Design has moved on

Perhaps not if a heavy ballasted, stiff boat with an easy motion at sea is a prime requirement.

The term " Modern " was, I believe, to separate recent/current builds from old clunkers. There are plenty of those about!

Bob Johnson, Island Packets designer and ex Company owner was, in a previous career an aerospace designer for, IIRC, McDonnell Douglas. One imagines he would be up to speed with hi tech construction and modern stress/strain calculation

Been more than happy with the layout and build quality of both of ours.

 

[Laser310]

Their requirements appear to be different to European requirements

I think it's one.., somewhat idiosyncratic.., client - the one client commissioned the design, and wanted four boats built.

apparently he wanted to position them around the world.

 

[Laser310]

The term " Modern " was, I believe, to separate recent/current builds from old clunkers. There are plenty of those about!

and, if you read Perry's comments about the build of the four cutters.., the client asked for carbon construction, and Perry initially thought it was a waste of money and tried to talk him out of it.., but then realized how much more ballast he could put down in the keel for the same displacement, resulting in a stiffer faster boat than a traditional full keel boat built with standard construction.

 

[rotrax]

Having seen some serious injuries with early carbon fibre racing motorcycle components I am NOT enthused about its use in a cruising boat.

If/when it breaks it can produce razor sharp splinters and edges. I have seen a leather race suit cut right through after a crash destroyed the seat. And the riders leg.

But if a client specifies it for a new build, no problem.

Problems, if any, will come later.

 

[Lucy52]

Having seen some serious injuries with early carbon fibre racing motorcycle components I am NOT enthused about its use in a cruising boat.

If/when it breaks it can produce razor sharp splinters and edges. I have seen a leather race suit cut right through after a crash destroyed the seat. And the riders leg.

But if a client specifies it for a new build, no problem.

Problems, if any, will come later.

It is the same with carbon fibre push bikes, when the frame fails catastrophically you end up on the tarmac.

 

[V1701]

I've always liked the look of Hans Christians, some of which are long, some fin/skeg...

 

[Laminar Flow]

and, if you read Perry's comments about the build of the four cutters.., the client asked for carbon construction, and Perry initially thought it was a waste of money and tried to talk him out of it.., but then realized how much more ballast he could put down in the keel for the same displacement, resulting in a stiffer faster boat than a traditional full keel boat built with standard construction.

You do understand that to use an adjective such as "fast" or worse, "faster", in the same context as "long keel" will likely end with a fatwa being pronounced against you by the resident short keel imams and , possibly, a ban from the forum for dissemination of "fake news"

Regardless, I'd love to see some performance figures for Perry's carbon cutters with their high ballast ratio and powerful rigs.

 

[geem]

You do understand that to use an adjective such as "fast" or worse, "faster", in the same context as "long keel" will likely end with a fatwa being pronounced against you by the resident short keel imams and , possibly, a ban from the forum for dissemination of "fake news"

Regardless, I'd love to see some performance figures for Perry's carbon cutters with their high ballast ratio and powerful rigs.

Having raced on Carriacou sloops in Antigua race week I can confirm that those boats sail surprisingly well with their long shallow keels. However, they are completely empty below. They have huge sail area and lots of crew. They are hard to sail with huge weather helm. You need gorilla on the helm. I am sure Bob Perry can design something better but the principal is keep them light, have huge sail area and lots of crew. This doesnt seem the best set up for a fast long keel cruising boat.
We have sailed in company with Island Packets several times on passages between islands in the Caribbean. They go ok as long as the wind isn't too far forward of the beam. Once that happens they seem to end up heading down the course. This may be due to the long keel, the cutter, the inmast main rig and the waves and current pushing them down the course. We dont see them tacking up the islands. They just motor with the main up. Having said that, most charter boats do the same?

 

[rotrax]

Being new to Sailing - my first time on a sailboat was 19 years ago for a CC course - I soon worked out that to get where you really wanted to go was often a matter of luck.

Weather, Tide, and Wind are rarely absolutely right for a cracking sail.

When they are not, up goes the iron jib. Or you choose another destination.

Island Packets are all shallow draught and have short masts. The shallow draught is a good thing to have except when the wind is forward when leeway becomes a problem - as you note.

The short masts and shallow draught allow Island Packets to use all of the USA's Intercoastal Waterway, something many deep and tall rigged craft are not able to do.

Bob Johnson made those compromises as they were assets many owners and potential owners wanted.

If voyaging under sail was my priority I would not own such a compromised sailing vessel. As it is not, because First Mate and I are unashamed travellers by water, not purist sailors, the comfort alongside and on the hook, the build quality and sheer practicality of a boat designed to be used and worked by a cruising couple does it for us.

I know it will not do it for others, but to us, that is of little consequence.

We have what we like!

 

[Blueboatman]

Why don’t we see more wing keels?

Did they prove too expensive ?

 

[fredrussell]

Why don’t we see more wing keels?

Did they prove too expensive ?

There was a thread on here recently all about wing keels. The gist of it was that they’re not the blessing they were once thought to be.

 

[ashtead]

Don’t wing keels get stuck in the mud and fall off ? I had heard rumours of was it Spring 25 having issues ?

 

[Blueboatman]

Don’t wing keels get stuck in the mud and fall off ? I had heard rumours of was it Spring 25 having issues ?

Ooer, that doesn’t sound very user friendly at all.
Keels, meh, it only takes one for the myths to start ..
Bilge keels, stub keels, bolt on keels, keel attachments, wasting bolts on long keels, water ingress in encapsulated ones...hey ho ?

 

[ip485]

As to IP's of course I am biased.

I am not sure I would have a small one. I think a long keel becomes more of a disadvantage from a performance perspective the smaller the yacht. At around 50 feet IPs perform remarkably well. Inevitably some of the compromises still apply, and an equivalent fin keeler will go better up wind, but the difference seems more marginal in that the speed and angle is still ok. Also the sheer weight starts to have an influence as the going gets tougher, because the inertia enables the yacht to plod on pretty much regardless with sea kindliness, so you inevitably need to put less effort into sailing the yacht than in a lighter fin keeler, and so when the effort wanes, the IP seems to go gaster. The weight difference also seems more significant in that so many yachts of this size are built down to a weight but in fact weight can have an advantage when it comes to very short hand cruising.

The same is true of the sail plan and draft. I draw 1.6 metres, so can get into most harbours which has many advantages. The cutter rig also means the power can be increased without just carrying one single bigger sail.

Inevitably it is of course a compromise but for very short handed cruising especially over good distances everyone should consider an IP, preferably in the 35 foot and above category, but as a yacht on which to love to spend time they have much to offer.

 

[Zagato]

This 32' IP has a very shallow long keel but you can have a lifting keel option set into the keel. Probably where Cornish Crabbers got the idea from on their new boats. In fact they probably share the same market. I love the inside, spacious, opening port holes, nice wood for a change, nice coloured surfaces other than just white and many of the details in lighting, shelving etc. It looks to be a premium boat... very nice.

Island Packet 32 Used Boat for Sale 1990(SOLD) | TheYachtMarket

 

[geem]

As to IP's of course I am biased.

I am not sure I would have a small one. I think a long keel becomes more of a disadvantage from a performance perspective the smaller the yacht. At around 50 feet IPs perform remarkably well. Inevitably some of the compromises still apply, and an equivalent fin keeler will go better up wind, but the difference seems more marginal in that the speed and angle is still ok. Also the sheer weight starts to have an influence as the going gets tougher, because the inertia enables the yacht to plod on pretty much regardless with sea kindliness, so you inevitably need to put less effort into sailing the yacht than in a lighter fin keeler, and so when the effort wanes, the IP seems to go gaster. The weight difference also seems more significant in that so many yachts of this size are built down to a weight but in fact weight can have an advantage when it comes to very short hand cruising.

The same is true of the sail plan and draft. I draw 1.6 metres, so can get into most harbours which has many advantages. The cutter rig also means the power can be increased without just carrying one single bigger sail.

Inevitably it is of course a compromise but for very short handed cruising especially over good distances everyone should consider an IP, preferably in the 35 foot and above category, but as a yacht on which to love to spend time they have much to offer.

As to IP's of course I am biased.

I am not sure I would have a small one. I think a long keel becomes more of a disadvantage from a performance perspective the smaller the yacht. At around 50 feet IPs perform remarkably well. Inevitably some of the compromises still apply, and an equivalent fin keeler will go better up wind, but the difference seems more marginal in that the speed and angle is still ok. Also the sheer weight starts to have an influence as the going gets tougher, because the inertia enables the yacht to plod on pretty much regardless with sea kindliness, so you inevitably need to put less effort into sailing the yacht than in a lighter fin keeler, and so when the effort wanes, the IP seems to go gaster. The weight difference also seems more significant in that so many yachts of this size are built down to a weight but in fact weight can have an advantage when it comes to very short hand cruising.

The same is true of the sail plan and draft. I draw 1.6 metres, so can get into most harbours which has many advantages. The cutter rig also means the power can be increased without just carrying one single bigger sail.

Inevitably it is of course a compromise but for very short handed cruising especially over good distances everyone should consider an IP, preferably in the 35 foot and above category, but as a yacht on which to love to spend time they have much to offer.

We have a 44 ft Van De Stadt design. Heavier than an equivalent sized IP. IPs never outpace us. We are comfy, we have the weight. We are set up for short handed sailing. We are Solent rigged so an easily managed headsail set up that gives performance advantages to windward and downwind compared to a cutter without resorting to spinnaker of code zero.
We dont have shallow draft but we don't want it or need it. Our previous boat was a catamaran. We have done all the shallow draft sailing we ever needed to do. Lots of boats can have shallow draft so its not a unique aspect of IPs. I am not knocking IPs but I don't see their advantage. If you need to sail up wind for several days on an Ocean crossing short handed all I see is a disadvantage. You will be no more comfy, no faster just slower and sail further. Its not a problem if you are happy with that but that is reality.

 

[Babylon]

I'm afraid I fall into the small, short, heavy, long-keeled, cutter-rigged category... and have done for fourteen years.

Terrible boat, awful!

 

[Stemar]

I'm afraid I fall into the small, short, heavy, long-keeled, cutter-rigged category... and have done for fourteen years.

Terrible boat, awful!

You could do worse. Try short, heavy, shallow, vertical bilge keels...

I describe my Snapdragon as a tough little motorsailer but, for her size, she's comfortable and copes well with bad weather. Just forget about sailing to windward. Years ago when I was doing the Round the Island on other people's boats, I used to joke that if I took Jissel round and got in before the 2230 cut-off, I'd be handicap winner.

It seems like so many other things, "long keelers are old fashioned rubbish" "No they aren't, they're brilliant" Entrenched opinions won't be changed by argument, any more than you could argue Boris into a policy of nationalisation or Starmer into laissez faire capitalism.

Having no dog in the fight, I reckon both are right in their context. If I'm racing round the cans, with an occasional jaunt across to to France, in and out of marinas all the time, a lightweight fin that does what I want going backwards would be ideal; if As a middle aged couple going across oceans with no rush and the need to put up with gales at sea, that long keeler would be ideal, not as fast as the cruiser-racer, but less likely to throw me across the cabin when things get bumpy and better able to carry all the clutter a long-term cruiser accumulates, and, since I spend most of my time at anchor, being less nimble astern is far less of an issue. Saying one's better than the other is like arguing whether a Ferrari is better than a Land Cruiser. Driving down to a track day at the Nurnburgring , few would pick the Land Cruiser, but put it in a muddy field and it's a different story.

 

[ip485]

Geem - we each love our boat (hopefully) and then we fall in love again with something we believe is better. You fell in love with your cat. and as you say it served an especially good purpose getting into just about any harbour. My 1.6 metres does much the same job, and so I love it and see it as an advantage of a long keel. The Van de Stadt has weight to its advantage. Most modern fin keelers dont. The IP is again a compromise. It sits between the two. I suspect neither is perfect, but as long as we love our boat this is all that matters.