Modern, full/long keel and ideally cutter rigged

[geem]

Dom - Exactly. Each for there own.

I am not entirely convinced mind you when it does come to ocean passages even then every boat is the same. So many modern yachts for example have a balsa core - I am not convinced this is the ideal construction - but it is definitely more cost effective. Some of the light rigs are also undoubtedly adequate, but if pressed to the limit, I suspect some would fail well before others. In theory on some of the more costly blue water yachts you are also buying into a product that is probably more robust when the chips are really down.

I think balsa in construction is an interesting one. The sandwich construction creates stiffness in a hull without adding unnecessary weight. The weakness of balsa as a core material is potential rot if the core is breached. If its not breached then there shouldn't be a problem. You can still have a very well constructed hull that is sandwich construction. By comparison, a solid glass hull of equal stiffness to the cored hull would need to use substantial solid glass layup. This makes the hull much heavier than the cored hull. I am all for weight in a cruising boat to a point. Weight in the keel rather than the hull would be my preference but equally a strong hull in a cruising hull would be a benefit.

 

[dom]

Dom - Exactly. Each for there own.

I am not entirely convinced mind you when it does come to ocean passages even then every boat is the same. So many modern yachts for example have a balsa core - I am not convinced this is the ideal construction - but it is definitely more cost effective. Some of the light rigs are also undoubtedly adequate, but if pressed to the limit, I suspect some would fail well before others. In theory on some of the more costly blue water yachts you are also buying into a product that is probably more robust when the chips are really down.

Not convinced there's much to see here either: almost all yachts use coring in parts of their layup and invariably in their decks. The aforementioned Valiant for example uses balsa, IPs use polycore, other manufacturers use foam, and so on. All are much of a muchness and all can fail if not fabricated/treated correctly. Ditto rudders, where I know that say IPs suffer problems with delamination, but then so do many vessels.

In terms of rigs, as with engines, the big manufacturers like Harken, Lewmar, and Sparcraft dominate. Once again many of your IPs for example use Sparcraft spars, alongside Beneteau, Jeanneau Catalina, Wauquiez, X-Yacths, etc. As for the wires and fittings that hold them up, once again these are dimensioned to accepted manufacturer/engineering tolerances. In terms of safety, maintenance is the most most important factor by a country mile.

At the end of the day it comes down to choice. As with say kitchen design some people spec Gaggeneau and design wise they're pretty cool. Does a Gaggeneau fridge keep food better chilled than its parents' fridges (Bosch or Siemens)? No, but they're more expensive to maintain as Gaggeneau engineers drive better vans, the products are more bespoke and fussy to repair, and so on.

Choice is great

 

[E39mad]

In terms of rigs, as with engines, the big manufacturers like Harken, Lewmar, and Sparcraft dominate. Once again many of your IPs for example use Sparcraft spars, alongside Beneteau, Jeanneau Catalina, Wauquiez, X-Yacths, etc. As for the wires and fittings that hold them up, once again these are dimensioned to accepted manufacturer/engineering tolerances. In terms of safety, maintenance is the most most important factor by a country mile.

Whilst the manufacturers might be the same the specification of the rig and rigging can be massively different. For instance ocean going designs such as a Vancouver has oversized rigging, two backstays, separate full intermediates and lowers rather than them being incorporated at the mast etc etc. The rig is likely to stay up if one or possibly two of the stays fail.

 

[dom]

Whilst the manufacturers might be the same the specification of the rig and rigging can be massively different. For instance ocean going designs such as a Vancouver has oversized rigging, two backstays, separate full intermediates and lowers rather than them being incorporated at the mast etc etc. The rig is likely to stay up if one or possibly two of the stays fail.

Great boats I'm sure and rigs certainly can be different depending on sail config etc. Although racing boats often sport even more powerful rigs and I can certainly attest to the cost of 14mm+ stays and the fittings that go with them!

In terms of the stick staying up if one or two stays fail: once again, that's got to be a maybe. Sure one can blow a minor stay and get away with it as can most rigs, but blowout a cap shroud or forestay and it's Goodnight Josephine for the rig.

And here I think the racers have something to contribute and why I would personally recommend changing the rigging well within the 10-Yr window on a heavily used boat, including the deck fittings which are so often overlooked. Also regular mast/rig inspections to include spreader roots etc. are necessary, as the addition of say doubler plates can avoid subsequent damage or worse.

Finally, nothing IMHO trumps top-notch maintenance, a well setup boat, a competent crew, and if I may throw in another race favourite - access to a decent satphone connection offshore. Weather routing is so much better than trusting Zeus

 

[ip485]

Some interesting points.

From one entirely biased point, the hull of the 50 foot IP is solid, there is no core material - how do I know, I have a plug here. It is about 3 inches. It takes an awful lot of effort with a rotary cutter to get through the hull.

There is a double backstay, top to bottom and a complicated array of uppers and lowers. There are two forestays. The rudder is hung between full length keel and the top of the hull. The prop sits immediately behind the keel with almost no shaft protruding and protected by the keel and rudder. There is £5K of rigging, and this is just the stainless and labour to replace the wire.

The keel starts a few feet behind the sheer of the bow and is and integral part of the construction.

In short, the rig, the mast, and the hull are all over engineered, everything is oversized (and probably over weight) but almost as bullet proof as reasonable.

Again, not for everyone, and again a significant cost increase, but horses for courses. I rather like the concept when I am not racing and there is just the two of us on long passage.

 

[dom]

Some interesting points.

From one entirely biased point, the hull of the 50 foot IP is solid, there is no core material - how do I know, I have a plug here. It is about 3 inches. It takes an awful lot of effort with a rotary cutter to get through the hull.

There is a double backstay, top to bottom and a complicated array of uppers and lowers. There are two forestays. The rudder is hung between full length keel and the top of the hull. The prop sits immediately behind the keel with almost no shaft protruding and protected by the keel and rudder. There is £5K of rigging, and this is just the stainless and labour to replace the wire.

The keel starts a few feet behind the sheer of the bow and is and integral part of the construction.

In short, the rig, the mast, and the hull are all over engineered, everything is oversized (and probably over weight) but almost as bullet proof as reasonable.

Again, not for everyone, and again a significant cost increase, but horses for courses. I rather like the concept when I am not racing and there is just the two of us on long passage.

On this we agree

Having got a couple of quotes, in 2015 I spent £11,500 with Advanced Rigging, Hamble (highly recommended) to replace rigging on a 50'ish fast cruiser. Racing boats costs much more. Wires get exponentially more expensive as they increase in size.

The key to safety as you say is to overengineer and oversize and yes; it does entail significant cost increases!

 

[newtothis]

On this we agree

Having got a couple of quotes, in 2015 I spent £11,500 with Advanced Rigging, Hamble (highly recommended) to replace rigging on a 50'ish fast cruiser. Racing boats costs much more. Wires get exponentially more expensive as they increase in size.

The key to safety as you say is to overengineer and oversize and yes; it does entail significant cost increases!

Again, gaff and junk rig owners smile knowingly, remembering the sail tracks/slides thread.

 

[geem]

Some interesting points.

From one entirely biased point, the hull of the 50 foot IP is solid, there is no core material - how do I know, I have a plug here. It is about 3 inches. It takes an awful lot of effort with a rotary cutter to get through the hull.

There is a double backstay, top to bottom and a complicated array of uppers and lowers. There are two forestays. The rudder is hung between full length keel and the top of the hull. The prop sits immediately behind the keel with almost no shaft protruding and protected by the keel and rudder. There is £5K of rigging, and this is just the stainless and labour to replace the wire.

The keel starts a few feet behind the sheer of the bow and is and integral part of the construction.

In short, the rig, the mast, and the hull are all over engineered, everything is oversized (and probably over weight) but almost as bullet proof as reasonable.

Again, not for everyone, and again a significant cost increase, but horses for courses. I rather like the concept when I am not racing and there is just the two of us on long passage.

I dont think IPs have a monopoly of over engineering. By comparison the IP44, the same size as my Van de Stadt, is not over engineered. Rigging size on the IP is 8mm. The VdS is 12mm. Weight of IP 12.5t, VdS is 15t. VdS has an encapsulated lead keel on a deep long fin. More ballast and deeper draft. The rudder is 12’5” long, three bearing supported by a substantial full skeg. The prop shaft is 50mm diameter with none of it exposed. The hull is solid below the waterline, Airex cored above waterline and on deck. Hull is 1.5 inch thick. The masts are fully welded. No rivets. By comparison the IP44 is pretty run of the mill

 

[Rappey]

Hull is 1.5 inch

? a grp hull is 1.5" thick ? Surely that shows a complete lack of understanding of engineering and design as half of that would still be adequate , so cheaper to build and allowing more low down ballast ?

 

[rotrax]

Island Packet huls are pretty solid too, but Bob Johnsons aerospace experience allowed him to put the strength where it was essential, low down,

The IP guy at a London Boatshow offered me something to look at.

It was about 35mm long, round and had stripes along its length. It had been beautifully varnished.

He asked if I knew what it was. I said I did not.

He told me it was the plug removed from the cutter after fitting the depth transducer to the boat we were on, an IP 370...................................

 

[dom]

The IP guy at a London Boatshow offered me something to look at.

It was about 35mm long, round and had stripes along its length. It had been beautifully varnished.

He asked if I knew what it was. I said I did not.

He told me it was the plug removed from the cutter after fitting the depth transducer to the boat we were on, an IP 370...................................

My boat is even thicker.

It got itself stuck in the mud on a Folly Inn pontoon in full knowledge that the tide was going out

 

[ip485]

I dont think IPs have a monopoly of over engineering. By comparison the IP44, the same size as my Van de Stadt, is not over engineered. Rigging size on the IP is 8mm. The VdS is 12mm. Weight of IP 12.5t, VdS is 15t. VdS has an encapsulated lead keel on a deep long fin. More ballast and deeper draft. The rudder is 12’5” long, three bearing supported by a substantial full skeg. The prop shaft is 50mm diameter with none of it exposed. The hull is solid below the waterline, Airex cored above waterline and on deck. Hull is 1.5 inch thick. The masts are fully welded. No rivets. By comparison the IP44 is pretty run of the mill

Well it wasnt with the intention of starting a pi**ing competition . VdS is undoubtedly a great boat (probably over engineered but hey ;-) )

No serioulsy my point was to compare and contrast across the extremes.

As I said earlier each to their own, and the VdS has a huge amount to commend it.

 

[geem]

? a grp hull is 1.5" thick ? Surely that shows a complete lack of understanding of engineering and design as half of that would still be adequate , so cheaper to build and allowing more low down ballast ?

Its a cored hull! 1” core with 1/4” grp skins either side of the core. I am not sure what the thickness is in the underwater sections as it varies from very thick near the keel route as you would expect to may be 1/2” elsewhere but I havent measured it

 

[geem]

Well it wasnt with the intention of starting a pi**ing competition . VdS is undoubtedly a great boat (probably over engineered but hey ;-) )

No serioulsy my point was to compare and contrast across the extremes.

As I said earlier each to their own, and the VdS has a huge amount to commend it.

It wasnt meant as a dig or peeing contest. i should have added a smiley?

 

[Rappey]

Its a cored hull!

My appologies then. I mistook you as saying your hull was 1.5 " solid grp. ?

 

[ip485]

Geem - happy to see the smiley!

 

[Zagato]

Presuming the type of keel when looking at speed is largely to do with drag. I wonder how much advantage a fin keels wetted area is compared to a long keel when there maybe more area of a modern fin keel with such a wide flat bottom ( as well as leeway movement)! Accounting for descriptions as It seems long keel and fin keel cover many differing keels. I suppose when these great wide platforms are heeled over the wetted area decreases significantly.

What you want boys is a long keel boat good in light airs but has a 58% ballast ratio ? Think sports car not mini bus ? It's great as long as you don't mind your knees being at a 90 degree angle 24/7 and you can shower lieing down! It's even small enough to almost plonk onto the local pond to join the other model boats during lockdown ?