MMSI

[webcraft]

How do you apply for one of these?

- Nick

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[jimh]

you get one automatically if you state you have a dsc radio when you apply for a vhf licence (Radiocommunications Agency).

If you have an existing vhf licence (non dsc), would suggest you contact the RA.

http://www.radio.gov.uk/

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[webcraft]

Thanks Jimi,

I didn't look through the application form closely enough - a serious case of RTFM

The license has just esxpired, so I suppose I'd better renew it and get an MMSI in the process.

- Nick

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[Gezzer]

You can do it all online now, go to

http://www.radiolicenceforms.co.uk/ShipAmendment.asp

and have a look, I did mine that way this year, and applied for an MMSI that way to.



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[dickh]

jimh, when you fill in the form, do they ask you the make & model of DSC radio? The reason I'm asking is that there are non EU/CE marked DSC radios appearing on ebay.co.uk and of course from the US site and US chandlers - at a considerable saving.....
There was one from Icom mod. No. 402S which looks ideal($170 from West Marine), but is one likely to be prosecuted for using such a "non-approved radio?" - or even found out?

<hr width=100% size=1>dickh
I'd rather be sailing... /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Mike_Martin]

We do not ask on the form about either the details of the radio or your Operator Certificate.

It would be a pretty pointless exercise, as someone who would buy and fit illegal equipment is unlikely to worry about putting false details on the licence application. However, these issues are checked when we carry out seasonal enforcement work that is when we come alongside and have a poke about.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Manager,
Aeronautical & Maritime Services Section,
Radiocommunications Agency

 

[gonfishing]

you do need to do the DSC refresher course if you only hold a vhf licence it is illegal for you to operate a DSC set. so you will need to arrange for a couse with the RYA etc

julian

<hr width=100% size=1>WHAT??? more petrol!!!

 

[webcraft]

On the application form you have to indicate the number and type of equipment - so you have to say if you are going to be using a DSC set.

I am currently operating a DSC-capable set - but until the MMSI number is put in the DSC facilities are not enabled, so I presume I am not operating it illegally - although of course I still have to do the (rip-off) half day update to my license before I can use the DSC side of it.

And if I AM operating it illegally - even though I cannot currently access the DSC facilities - then this is an insane piece of legislation and I am certainly not the only person in this position.

I understand that people are now being asked to produce their license before they can buy a DSC VHF. This is ludicrous. Picture the scenario - your trusty old VHF dies just before a two week trip. You have to buy a new one or do without radio. Of course, you are going to buy a non-DSC capable set and fit it, then throw it away later and get another new DSC set once you have done your half day course - I think not.

It is ill-conceived legislation like this that is likely to encourage people to say sod it and fit an illegal set bought cheaply from abroad . . . although I would hasten to point out that mine is UK approved.

- Nick

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[Mike_Martin]

Hi Nick,
I feel that this is one where it is worth spelling out some of the issues although, as usual, you can pick up the background by visiting http://www.radio.gov.uk/topics/maritime/maritime-index.htm

1) The UK only issues MMSI numbers once you have declared that you have DSC equipment on board. Fairly straight-forward reasoning behind this, we give the info to HMCG every week, there is little point telling them that they can contact vessels using DSC that haven't actually got it.

2) Where a user only holds a VHF Restricted Operator’s Certificate and carries a VHF/DSC set but the DSC element is inoperable and with no MMSI number programmed. In the UK the Agency obviously applies a pragmatic approach to the situation. If on inspection, the DSC element is actually un-usable we would see no reason to consider it a breach of either: the UK Ship Radio Licence Terms or the international Radio Regulations. However, if the user has been monitored using DSC prior to inspection, we would expect to see the relevant Certificate of Competence. It is worth bearing in mind that a Maritime radio set can be legally “available for use” with a Ship Radio Licence alone. However, in this situation Channel 16 can be monitored and the radio can be legally used for DISTRESS CALLING only without an Operator’s Certificate. It is when you make non-DISTRESS calls that the Operator’s Certificate is required.

3) I understand that people are being asked to show their Ship Radio Licence (by some dealers) prior to having an MMSI number programmed. This is in an attempt to prevent erroneous entry of the number. I personally applaud their initiative as we have had a few problems of wrongly entered MMSI numbers in the past. If someone has to swiftly change over and get an MMSI number issued in a hurry they can contact us and we will do our utmost to assist. We rarely fail if there is a real need as many customers would tell you if they chose to do so.

Mike


<hr width=100% size=1>Manager,
Aeronautical & Maritime Services Section,
Radiocommunications Agency

 

[webcraft]

Hi Mike,

I think that your reply is very clear, and I am delighted to hear that I am not in breach of the law at the moment. As I now understand it, once I enter my new MMSI number into the set however I will be on thin ice if I do not have the DSC endorsement for my ticket. If I program the set and actually use the DSC facility I will then be breaking the law.

Your point as to people putting in the wrong MMSI number is well taken; apart from the obvious vessel misidentification problems and ensuing chaos in an emergency situation, I believe most sets have to go back to the manufacturer to be reset if this happens. However, if you need to buy a new VHF immediately and do not have an MMSI number then obviously you will not be able to provide this information.

If you have on the other hand updated your license and have an MMSI number but have not yet managed to do the half day course (and there are many parts of the UK where this is not easy or even possible without significant travel and expense) then if you allow the dealer to enter the MMSI number you will be breaking the law - it would be better if you could buy the set without putting in an MMSI number, so you can use it legally without the DSC facilities.

If dealers insist on putting in an MMSI number before handing over a set then it would seem that to comply with the law you cannot change your radio now without having done the half day course first.

Of course, if we had all made it a priority and done it when the legislation first came out then it would have been no problem. However, I am sure many yachtsmen will not do it until they need a new radio - in which case we are back to this chicken and egg situation.

What happens re. changing the MMSI number if you want to sell your radio? My understanding is that the MMSI number goes with the vessel, not the radio.

- Nick

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[Mike_Martin]

Hi again Nick,

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough.

A Marine radio (VHF or VHF/DSC) may be "available for use" (installed and powered up) without the owner holding the relevant Opertor's Certificate as the Regs state that a person in DISTRESS may use all means to communicate their position in order to summon assistance. It is when you actually TX non-DISTRESS traffic (ie ship-to-ship chit-chat or calling up a Marina) that you must hold the Certifcate. However, this is of course over-ridden by the need to have drilled with the kit and be aware of how to use it. It still suprises me how many don't really understand that DSC is about "all calling on C70" not just DISTRESS.

If memory serves the quickest that I have managed to get an MMSI number allocated is about 10 mins, for a guy who was buying his set in Sweden last week. His licence details were checked to ensure he wasn't trying to pull a fast one, then the details were faxed from me to the shop in Sweden. So I think (and I'm sure that you will agree) that there isn't really a problem there.

Yes you are right that if the radio is moved from vessel 1 then the old MMSI number must be erased and the one for the vessel 2 must be used. It's the same system as with the callsign (but with programming!!).

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Manager,
Aeronautical & Maritime Services Section,
Radiocommunications Agency

 

[webcraft]

Mike,

It is you who are making things very unclear here. It was nothing to do with how quickly you could get an MMSI number. The radios work fine without them - in exactly the same way as non-DSC sets did/do.

The point I was making was that it simply isn't possible to get trained in a hurry if you suddenly need a new radio - so according to your last post you go from being a radio-equipped vessel with the ability to talk to the coastguard, marinas and harbours, ship to ship etc to a situation where you either can't buy a replacement radio at all until you have passed the course, or if you fit one you are not allowed to use it except for distress.

My position is:

1/ I have got an old VHF certificate, for which I trained and paid good money. I have been using VHF (voice only) for ten years. I do not regularly file traffic reports or ask for radio checks, but I do often call up harbours and marinas prior to entering, communicate ship to ship on an appropriate channel or call the coastguard for some information.

2/ I don't have the half day endorsement, but I do have a certificate that allows me to use a non-DSC VHF set.

3/ I have now fitted a DSC set. I won it in a competition and did not have to get an MMSI no. to take delivery of it.

4/ I have already used and intend to continue to use my new (DSC-capable) radio for voice-only transmissons. I do not see how this can suddenly become illegal just because the radio has the potential for DSC comms. I do not even see how it is detectable - there is no difference in the voice transmission signal just because the set is DSC-capable.

5/ I am however assuming that I cannot put in the MMSI number and use the DSC facilities until I have passed the course, but am OK to carry on using the radio voice only until then. This means I have the same radio facilities as before. I will put out an old fashioned distres call if the need arises, as I have been trained to do, and will not press the little red button because it will not work until I put the MMSI number in. Which I am not going to do until I have the piece of paper.

6/ The earliest I can do the half day upgrade locally is September. Great. Now what? Are you seriously telling me I can't use the radio even in non-DSC mode until then except for distress calls?

Believe me, Mike, your last post did not make the position any clearer. Please tell me if I am using my radio illegally if:

a/ I hold the old VHF certificate

b/ I do NOT enter the MMSI number when I receive my new ships radio license

c/ I only use the radio for simplex and duplex voice transmissions on the approved channels, as I was doing with my old set.

OR - should I rather have NOT said on the license application form that I had a DSC set? Then, I would not be issued with an MMSI number and could just have applied for one when I got the new certificate.

- Nick



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[tome]

Nick

It seems perfectly clear to me - don't enter the MMSI number (so enabling DSC) until you've done your upgrade. Carry on using it in voice only mode.

If you have to provide an MMSI to the supplier then you need to do your upgrade before installing or using it (to comply with the letter of the law).

I've never been checked once in nearly 30 years, and I'll put my hand up and say that I used my DSC enabled set for a couple of weeks before I did the upgrade and certainly didn't wait for the certificate to arrive before trying out the DSC functions.

I think we're getting a bit bogged down on pedantics here, to put it politely.

Regards
Tom

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[warrior40]

I would like information re this, the other way around!
Can I have an MMSI number, when I haven't got a DSC radio, but do have a certificate? , having completed the short range GMDSS DSC VHF course a year or two ago.I am planning to get a DSC eventually. The boat apparently had an MMSI before I bought her, but the lady at the radio communications agency said it had 'Expired'
My 406 EPIRB has an MMSI number on it ( ??)
As far as I am aware there has never been a DSC radio on the boat!!
What does all this mean then?? and can I ahve the number back!

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[Birdseye]

surely, if your epirb is registered and has an mmsi against it, you already have an mmsi for your boat. why do you want 2?

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[warrior40]

The woman at RLC said I dont have it any more!!

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[Mike_Martin]

Nick,

The answer is there!

I'd say just read it again but slowly and without assuming that I am trying to trap you in some way.

Mike



<hr width=100% size=1>Manager,
Aeronautical & Maritime Services Section,
Radiocommunications Agency