misreading coll regs

[steve_cronin]

Where do they teach that "the side on which the boom is carried indicates which tack a yacht is on"?
Plainly wrong. I'm astounded! It's always been "...the side efrom which the wind blows over the deck," to me which of course doesn't need too much working out that it is the opposite to the side on which the boom is carried.

When I was a kid, training boats had a tick on the stbd face of the boom and a cross on the port (sometimes substituted by the words yes and no) and I've subsequently seen reflective red and green adhesive patches used.

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[Guest]

Simply put - Col Regs take precedent over all ..

It si without question ..... Collision Regs take precedent over all other rules etc.

IYRU / Gods Racing Team ..... whatever you like to call them or dictate ..... International Regulations for Prevention of Collisions at Sea are the be all and end all of rights of way at sea.

Even the Navy follows 'em ...... sometimes !!


Oh and just a little jibe at some ..... I sailed prof. as a Merchant Officer etc. I do not profess to know all rules inside out etc. - but some here and elsewhere on water / forums etc. declare their total understanding and knowledge of them ..... OK - good for you, but to be honest I knew plenty of cadets who could quote rules verbatim - when you queried them in detail or needed a small practical demo from it ...... oh dear ! Knowing the words is not the whole picture .... nor does it make you better. Its the practical application and knowing when to stick to them, when to break off that is important.

Now I shall present my neck for the block for those who disagree.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

Correct Steve ..... but it goes further

Quote :

<<Rules in this section shall apply to vessels in sight of one another.

Rule 12

Sailing vessels
(a) When two sailing vessels are approaching one another, so as to involve risk of collision, one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:

(i) when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;

(ii) when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward.

(iii) if a vessel with the wind on the port side sees a vessel to windward and cannot determine with certainty whether the other vessel has the wind on her port or starboard side, she shall keep out of the way of the other.

(b) For the purposes of this rule the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.
>>

So there is a definition of the side by using the largest for-aft sailor mainsail to determine .......

Just thought I'd point it out ......


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Sans Bateau]

Re: Simply put - Col Regs take precedent over all ..

I fully agree, the only way to fully understand the Col Regs properly is to keep on referring to them in written form.

The Col Regs should be treated as Gospel. No racing rules ever over rule them. However even in a situation were one is the stand on vessel you should always be prepared to give way; this is to allow for the fact that the other skipper may not understand or even not care.

As we, as responsible skippers improve our own understanding of the Col Regs, then we will be much better able to manage potential collision situations. It is our responsibility to exercise best practice, that is every rule correctly, including lights and shapes. After all the primary object of the Col Regs is to avoid hitting another vessel. Rule 1 says 'no vessel has absolute right of way'.



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[steve_cronin]

Sorry....

... maybe a bit slow this lunchtime but I can't see the point you're trying to make. (Neither do I know why you are quoting the Col.Regs at me!)

The biz. about "largest sails & mainsails" etc. is surely so that when a boat is on a dead run and maybe able to have the boom out on either side, it's stand on or give way status can still be determined by a remote observer?

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[gjeffery]

Obviously, the overtaking boat has to keep clear under ColRegs. Even though to windward, the Optimist is not necessarily overtaking the 49er!


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[Dougie_the_Mate]

My experience earlier this summer in the Solent has convinced me that if even only half of the people out there know the Colregs your chances of a correct action in such cases are actually less than 50% since some folk will know them and simply ignore the rules anyway - because they can.

On holiday in Rothesay recently I did not see one vessel showing the appropriate shapes described in the Colregs other than the ferries. Not one yacht which was motor-sailing had a cone up and the fishing boats which were trawling in the bay had neither shapes nor the appropriate lights when it got dark. Indeed one yacht spent the night at a mooring with his anchor light on just opposite the Glenburn - I imagine that he felt that it was better to be safe than sorry.

Mrs Dougie is now of the opinion that I am raving when I describe the Colregs in different situations and considers my months of study to have been a waste of time and money if no one else is bothered. I am trying to persuade her that there are others who do think about such things, but she remains unconvinced.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Dougie_the_Mate on 19/08/2004 16:25 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

My Seamanship Instructor at MN College said :

Collisions only occur because two bodies decide to be in same place at same time .... understand that and you'll avoid looking stupid ....

OK - so Col Regs are the Gospel - BUT I do not agree that they are to be quoted word for word or adhered to to the exclusion of common sense.

As already posted on another thread by me - the example of my examination in MN for Officers ticket .... where I did not follow the regs and chjose to do other - in clear and bold manner so as to avoid confusion etc.-was accepted by the DTi examiner and actually commended for good seamanship.

When people realise that they are a Regulation and GUIDE to avoiding collsions - then a lot of the debates and arguments will abate.

It is interesting listening to / reading some answers - buta lso disapointing in some ways - as it seems that there are many that seem to have lost the whole point of them - - -

I would loive to see the average Rule thumper survive a West African fishing fleet or approach a chinese port etc. such as Dairan etc.

Sensible attitude, common sense and clear bold actions whether right or wrong so the other knows what you are doing ..... if you dither about whether right or wrong action - the other will be confused and have a serious problem.



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

Steve ...

I'm not trying to be smart or anything ......

There have been posts including yours that say there is no reference to side the boom is on ..... absolutely correct. But in the rule it is clearly stated about sail etc. giving specific definition to the windward etc.

I believe that the quote about sail is NOT for the other boat - but for the boat it is on .. to decide the windward / leeward etc. - if you see what I mean. As all rules are referenced to specific detail - this is just clarification of the point.

As to vessels overtaking each other ..... I still take the view that the overatking vsl, power or sail etc. etc. is to keep clear - sorry but thats my view.

As regards the conflict that can happen between power rules and sailing vsl rules .... sailing as I do in Solent where you have a large mix of all types of boats - I tend to stick with power based rules to keep it simple ..... so many of you are now going to shoot me dead ..... go for it .... but I have good reason for that and I also make sure that any action I take is bold and obvious to the other boat. Why do I do it .... port to port passing, vsl crosing from port side to give way etc. - with such a mix of power boats and sail boats - it would be so confusing and mayhem if sail went one way and power wnet another ......

I remember at colege that it was remarked on by instructors that this wa s potential area for serious incidents and must be watched extremely carefully .... I can only agree after all the years at sea and on boats.

If you think about it - imagine a scenario with 2 power boats from various directions, 2 sailboats from other directions and you in the middle .... all converging - interesting particularly if the convergance is in or near a restricted channel etc. You also have to factor in the Sailboat /powerboat mentality - we all have 'em !!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[kds]

Re: My Seamanship Instructor at MN College said :

Your postings on this thread do contain such a lot of good, useful sense.
Thanks.
Ken

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[kds]

"Can the IYRU rules conflict with ColRegs? "

No - not really.
The racing rules are a vuluntary code of practice acted on by those who choose to go racing, when meeting other boats racing. We used to have to put up a rectangular burgee at masthead to show that we were sailing under racing rules and to sign off at the end of the race to show that we had acted in accordance with them.
They do NOT apply when meeting other yachts not racing - the col. regs do.


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[jimi]

My experience is quite different... I'd say that by far the majority of boats, both leisure or commercial, act in accordance with the CR with only a very few showing downright disregard. Showing an anchor light on a mooring, whilst not required by the CR does in fact make you more visible and will in no way be a contributory factor to any accident .. I'd say it was sensible if on a mooring in an unlit area near where there might be any sort of vessel movement.

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[ChrisE]

I find that a burning rudder hung from the foretriangle provdes a very useful riding light.
Hope this helps.

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[jimi]

No need for that rubbish myself ..I just top up the holding tank and the surrounding quaratine area ensures privacy and safety ..

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[oldharry]

Re: Simply put - Col Regs take precedent over all ..

< no vessel has absolute right of way>

Not true. A vessel constrained by her draught, a vessel fishing, vessel towing another, vessel 'not under command' all effectively have absolute right of way under Colregs.

Try telling the master of QM2 or Oriana they dont have absolute right of way as they turn off Calshott! You will get a pretty smart response from them and VTS!!

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[bedouin]

Re: Simply put - Col Regs take precedent over all

Please quote where in IRPCS the phrase "right of way" exists.

I think you are confusing Colregs with Racing Rules

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[peterb]

Re: Simply put - Col Regs take precedent over all ..

They don't have "absolute right of way" under Colregs (see Rule 2). They might have right of way under Harbour Byelaws, but even there I have my doubts.

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[steve_cronin]

Whoa there Nigel!

You seem to be starting an arguement that doesn't exist!

I certainly agree with you on overtaking.

Why? because that is what the coll regs say.

As to "selective interpretation" or even "selective adherence" to the Colregs, I find this a very risky stance to take.

I have done my 30yrs plus in the Solent on both motor and sailing boats and cannot accept "ignorance" as an excuse. Remember that even if you only use powered craft, you still need to be knowledgeable of ALL the colregs even if only to be able to tell which way a sailing boat might turn as you approach. You certainly need to keep your wits about you in the Solent, even if there aren't any racing fleets around sailing with the authority of the Almighty!

I therefore find your "adherence to motorboat rules whilst sailing" a bit alarming. Firstly, I believe that me giving way to a motorboat chugging across my bow from starboard as I sail up Southampton water a little bizzarre and secondly I wonder how this will be treated by the motorboat - will he come to expect this from other sailing boats? Thirdly, in any system devised by man, someone effectively writing their own rulebook is going to lead to disaster!

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[Guest]

Oh dear .... to oldharry

I have to disagree here as it is only a vessel that is completely disabled and totally not able to comply with any rule / order / command or whatever that is absolute right of way through being impossible to take any action.

ALL other vessels have option to take action.

Sorry but the rules do not state absolute rights whatsoever - they state what should be followed with as we all know provision to take further action as deemed necessary.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[Guest]

Re: Whoa there Nigel!

OK - point taken and agreed ..... I was bit over zealous with the post ..... as are many others ! I didn't explain well enough ......

Normally I like you would follow the rules and expect others to do likewise.
But often in crowded waters such as Solent where you have the likes of Sunsail fleets racing around, powerboats trying to prve they can burn more fuel than the other, sailboats all heading in different directions - it can get a bit hectic. A lot of sail boats also are motor-sailing in solent - as you know the currents and prevailing winds often are against pure sialing to destination etc.

So with this in mind - made a conscious decision - right or wrong - to not disregard the Col Regs - but to use them in best possible way and also to exercise my right to act boldly and early enough to avoid confusion.

I have no disagreement with your post now ... and I agree that non-one should rewrite the rules or create their own .... I haven't - I have used the provision built into the rules to apply prudently.

I can say that in all the years I have sailed the solent that only on a few occasions have I come a cropper with another boat .... usually because of their stupid actions such as the berk I posted about in Chichester Hbr entrance ......

I herteby request that anyone who has had an incident or action involving me or my boat Superanne in relation to this topic - to come forth and be heard ......... that should start a new thread rolling !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ... and of course Yahoo groups :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/