petem
Well-known member
Apparently, favouring people from the UK over people from another country could be deemed unconstitutional under French law (not EU law).
Med boaters easing of 90/ 180
- Thread starter Portofino
- Start date
jfm
Well-known member
What do you mean by "apparently"? And does an American (say) have standing to invoke the French constitution in a French court? I doubt it.
petem
Well-known member
I'm citing a comment made by the the chap who owns the "FRANCE VISA FREE" Facebook Group. Apparently, one of the French MP's raised an objection to the amendment saying that it was 'unconstitutional' under the French constitution.
I don't think standing has anything to do with it. Surely, it's no different than an American Senator objecting that a proposed restriction on gun law are or free speech would be unconstitutional under the US constitution.
jfm
Well-known member
OK thanks.
An American senator is a US citizen so has standing to invoke the US constitution and challenge (in US courts) a law that appears unconstitutional. A non American doesn’t have that standing and can't make such a challenge.
An American senator is a US citizen so has standing to invoke the US constitution and challenge (in US courts) a law that appears unconstitutional. A non American doesn’t have that standing and can't make such a challenge.
Portofino
Well-known member
But if Brits post 21 are now in the same classification as Americans ie 3 P ( none EU ) can buy in FR property and be included in this ,loosing the 90/180 , isnt it discriminatory against other 3 p ?
1- Leaving aside the stoking up second home ownership, forcing locals out problem .
I think the intention of clause K was to increase existing usage of holiday homes by Brits who make up a large proportion of the economy of places like the the Var , Provonce , french alps etc .
2- It wasn’t to fuel a Brit property buying boom or nick buyers from Spain etc .
It was tagged onto there wider immigration bill ( not for discussion here Ps ) which was to somewhat limit gen immigration and increase control .
.3- So opening a flood gate of Brit buying property owners kinda flys against that .…..if there wasn’t a pre 21 stinger .
Aside as Pete said ^ that’s whats happened.
They must have tweaked it to pre 21 to prevent future discriminatory suits .But your point is where ?in who’s court I don’t know . The outcome is the same anyhow. It’s solved problems 1-2-3 above . Achieving the intention of putting back the economy’s of those Brit infested regions that the 90/180 knackered.
It’s been 2 yrs in prep and debates up / down Fr .
petem
Well-known member
In case it's not clear from the above, this change isn't law yet (it's just a small part of a much larger and controversial French immigration bill).
As I understand it, it could still be amended before it makes it onto the French statute books.
Bouba
Well-known member
It was to right a wrong....that British second home owners have been unfairly penalized through no fault of their own...amazingly a law maker took note and even more amazingly it passed and quickly.
westernman
Well-known member
It has been passed, and I think is therefore law.
However, it could eventually be determined that parts are unconstitutional. Or not. I suspect not. It is just opposition parties trying to get some gain out of this.
petem
Well-known member
Thanks. Does it include the 2021 restriction that Porto claims?
jfm
Well-known member
OK (and I've seen post #88) but it doesn't impact the point we are discussing.
petem
Well-known member
It will be interesting to see how the definition of "residence" is interpreted. Does it include static caravans for example, or even boats?
jfm
Well-known member
Indeed it is discriminatory. But my point is that the folks discriminated against have no right not to be discriminated against.
Zillions of laws are discriminatory. There are a few situations where EU level law prohibits discrimination, but not many, and this isn't one of them.
Clancy Moped
Well-known member
Also your wife and you are on the deeds, your kids?
Bouba
Well-known member
I would imagine that depends on the proof required...if it’s local council tax...then that would only encompass those dwellings that pay it
Forty_Two
Well-known member
From the Connexion website
What happens next for law to ease second-home visits to France?
"The main final step for the law now is that it will go to the Conseil constitutionnel, a body which assesses new laws for compliance with the French Constitution. It can take out items it judges illegal.
Ms Berthet's parliamentary assistant, Adrien Van de Walle, said this process may take up to a month depending on whether or not it is fast-tracked.
He said the Conseil will look at the whole immigration law, including article 1er K, from several aspects including:
Checking the article is not illegal because it contradicts the Constitution
Checking it does not break rules on financial obligations and is not in contradiction with the other aims of the immigration bill
Assuming all is well, the law will then be published in the Journal Officiel, and will then be fina.
Will Britons be able to start coming for long stays immediately?
No, the article 1er K states the general principle of an automatic long-stay visa for Britons with French second homes but adds that a decree will have to be made by the Conseil d’Etat, setting out conditions as to how the law will be applied in practice.
A long-stay visa refers to the right to come to France for more than three months. It would not necessarily have to involve physical ‘proof’ such as obtaining a sticker in the passport.
Mr Van de Walle said government officials will be obliged to draft this decree to put the law into practice but there is no set period. “It can be really quick, or very long.”
However, there is no further vote involved at this stage; the drafting will be by civil servants, with advice from the Conseil d’Etat (France’s top administrative body). It is possible they may also discuss the issue with Ms Berthet, as she put the law forward.
Do we know what the decree will say?
Not yet, however, Mr Van de Walle said they hope it will be as simple as possible, such as Britons merely having to show proof of home ownership at the border in order to benefit"
What happens next for law to ease second-home visits to France?
"The main final step for the law now is that it will go to the Conseil constitutionnel, a body which assesses new laws for compliance with the French Constitution. It can take out items it judges illegal.
Ms Berthet's parliamentary assistant, Adrien Van de Walle, said this process may take up to a month depending on whether or not it is fast-tracked.
He said the Conseil will look at the whole immigration law, including article 1er K, from several aspects including:
Checking the article is not illegal because it contradicts the Constitution
Checking it does not break rules on financial obligations and is not in contradiction with the other aims of the immigration bill
Assuming all is well, the law will then be published in the Journal Officiel, and will then be fina.
Will Britons be able to start coming for long stays immediately?
No, the article 1er K states the general principle of an automatic long-stay visa for Britons with French second homes but adds that a decree will have to be made by the Conseil d’Etat, setting out conditions as to how the law will be applied in practice.
A long-stay visa refers to the right to come to France for more than three months. It would not necessarily have to involve physical ‘proof’ such as obtaining a sticker in the passport.
Mr Van de Walle said government officials will be obliged to draft this decree to put the law into practice but there is no set period. “It can be really quick, or very long.”
However, there is no further vote involved at this stage; the drafting will be by civil servants, with advice from the Conseil d’Etat (France’s top administrative body). It is possible they may also discuss the issue with Ms Berthet, as she put the law forward.
Do we know what the decree will say?
Not yet, however, Mr Van de Walle said they hope it will be as simple as possible, such as Britons merely having to show proof of home ownership at the border in order to benefit"
westernman
Well-known member
In the article of law just passed it says: "They are therefore exempt from having to apply for a long-stay visa."
But for me it is a bit of a mystery as to how you will get a long-stay visa if you do not apply for it.
John_Silver
Well-known member
Hopefully both the VLS-T (Visa de Long Sejour - Tourisme) and the VLS (Visa de Long Sejour) will remain on offer. The former requiring a declaration that one does not intend to seek long term residency. The latter, as I understand it, existing as a pathway to that end. No doubt all will become clear, when my 2024 VLS-T application (my third) goes in during February 2024. Fingers crossed!
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westernman
Well-known member
I suspect it will depend on the person doing the interpretation.
However, my guess is that a "tax fonciere" might be the way used to assess eligibility.
You might just be able to get a caravan which is on land you own or a site with a long term rental agreement to count as a residence.
Following the same reasoning a boat should work as well if you have the berth on a long term lease (e.g. ammodiatiation).
Would a one year renewable berth lease work? May be.
Forty_Two
Well-known member
Exactly. Should mean less folks going this rouge easing the pressure.
