Med boaters easing of 90/ 180

[Portofino]

French senate backs ‘automatic visa’ right for UK second-home owners

- Doesn’t impinge on 90/180 in other EU Schengen states .
- Rumours Spain will follow later . Each state can make up its own border controls Independent of others .

Simplification route is no pratting about in Embassies or having PP amended = just show home ownership doc like paid eq of Fr property taxes bill with your name on .

 

[Baggywrinkle]

France and Spain cannot grant freedom of movement in other Schengen countries without granting citizenship ... the 80/180 rule still applies outside your country of residence.


https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2020-08/frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf

Question 15 ...

15 - I have a valid long stay visa/residence permit for a country that is part of the Schengen area. Do I need another visa to travel to otherSchengen states?

No. A long stay visa or a residence permit issued by a Schengen State allows you to travel or stay in other Schengen States, while respecting the maximum duration of a“short stay” (a stay of "90 days in any 180 day period").

I have freinds in Italy with residence permits who were told they should stamp in and out of Italy to provide proof that they don't violate the Schengen rules.

And this is the German government site which states ...

Non-EU citizens living in one of the countries that do apply the agreement fully (so-called Schengen States) with a valid residence permit do not need a visa for visits to Germany of up to 90 days in any period of 180 days when not taking up work.

Federal Foreign Office

EDIT: After reading your post again, when you say "Doesn’t impinge on 90/180 in other EU Schengen states ." I now assume you mean the 90/180 rules in other EU states still apply. .. . I'll still leave the rest of my post for clarification.

 

[Portofino]

France and Spain cannot grant freedom of movement in other Schengen countries without granting citizenship ... the 80/180 rule still applies outside your country of residence.


https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2020-08/frequently_asked_questions_en.pdf

Question 15 ...



I have freinds in Italy with residence permits who were told they should stamp in and out of Italy to provide proof that they don't violate the Schengen rules.

And this is the German government site which states ...



Federal Foreign Office

EDIT: After reading your post again, when you say "Doesn’t impinge on 90/180 in other EU Schengen states ." I now assume you mean the 90/180 rules in other EU states still apply. .. . I'll still leave the rest of my post for clarification.

Yes doesn’t.
So you can as French property owner ( if this goes live ) nip into the rest of Schengen where the 90/180 clock starts .

Ie 91 days in your Fr “ home “ does not disqualify you from nipping to Sp , Italy etc .

Not quite sure what your posts was about ?

This will be major concession to Med Boaters .
As I predicted ( covid delay granted ) the Fr are now blinking

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Yes doesn’t.
So you can as French property owner ( if this goes live ) nip into the rest of Schengen where the 90/180 clock starts .

Ie 91 days in your Fr “ home “ does not disqualify you from nipping to Sp , Italy etc .

Not quite sure what your posts was about ?

This will be major concession to Med Boaters .
As I predicted ( covid delay granted ) the Fr are now blinking

Not really sure it helps, you need a second property in France to benefit which is a significant investment for many, and while you can then cruise as much as you like on the French coast, the rest of the EU is still subject to Schengen rules.

.. and your article states that around 86,000 properties are owned by UK residents in France.

“We can see that, notably in Finistère following Brexit, there are a certain number of British second-home owners who are no longer in Europe and are therefore penalised concerning access to their properties. So, it seems relevant to allow them to obtain long-stay visas.” Editor’s note: this is already possible by declaring yourself to be a ‘visitor’.

... it is a just a simplification of an existing system, not some new rights. - I'd hardly call it blinking.

In Portugal it's going in the other direction ...

Portugal calls time on the Non-Habitual Resident (NHR) special tax regime - The Sovereign Group

 

[Baggywrinkle]

This thread should be merged with this one ... Schengen 90 day rule

 

[Portofino]

We have a french property .
Typically a 50/60 ft FB is new £2 M .
Find , or resist ticking a €100 K options box and splash that cash on a Fr “ second home “ = Bobs your uncle .Unrestricted access to Med or Atlantic .
Fr Meds quite large and very interesting btw .Even Corsica inc + up to 90 days in the summer bumming around the Italian islands .

It a new right to spend as long as you want on your boat in the summer based in France with min admin .
The long stay visa is designed for temp stays as the article says prospective residents etc , and it’s hassle to get .

Also some folks selling up in Sp /P might want to rebuy in Fr now ( if it becomes live ) .

Also budgetary vise generally for newbies entering boating they can split it to account for a bit for Fr holiday home .
Also those just wanting a villa or what ever currently with zero boating interest might just buy in Fr …..just in case they retire have more time and take up boating .

Many large boat owners in Antibes and other Fr Med marina ( WFH ? Options ) may just buy a bit of Fr real estate to take advantage of the new open season = stay as long as they like .

Its a huge change worthy of mention on here , because there are many Med mobo ers on here .Approaching or reached retirement.

Spend €100 K on a giro or €100 K on a Fr 2 nd home in the N ( rent it out ) if it only for the piece of paper .
Fr property is an investment btw let’s not forget that basic thing .Boats depreciate, bricks / mortar…….you know the rest .

 

[Tranona]

As usual some are reading into this things that are not there. British property owners in France are already eligible for 6 months visas but the problem is that they are a PITA to get not least because the visa offices are overwhelmed. All this proposal does is suggest an easier system where evidence of property ownership is accepted in lieu of a visa. How this will work is not clear and pretty certain it will get thrown out.

Just as an example of how impractical it is. Consider a family where the property is in the name of one family member. Is s/he the only one that does not need a visa? or does it apply to the whole family? how will the family be defined?

 

[oldgit]

No chance of us rocking up in Gravelines on a whim and not having to jump on the bus to get some bits of paper stamped yet then ?
Mind you, now that call me "Dave" is back and the grown ups have taken charge of the asylum , hope springs eternal ?

 

[Bouba]

I hate to say it but money isn’t always the first consideration.... they risked the superyacht market collapsing overnight when they confiscated the oligarchs boats...

 

[dpb]

Our boat is accepted as our 2nd home for purposes of long stay visa, but will it be for the proposed change...... Certainly would save us a lot of faff if it does.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

It's currently a proposal that needs to be ratified, it also needs to have the detail thrashed out as to how it is administered and policed.

Questions such as what document provides the proof? who exactly does it apply to? how do we prevent abuse? and more interesting questions such as what happens at the external Schengen border if you fly in through other Shengen countries - will they accept a proprty title in France in lieu of a long-stay visa?

Who knows? .... just have to wait and see if it makes it to legislation.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

We have a french property .
Typically a 50/60 ft FB is new £2 M .
Find , or resist ticking a €100 K options box and splash that cash on a Fr “ second home “ = Bobs your uncle .Unrestricted access to Med or Atlantic .
Fr Meds quite large and very interesting btw .Even Corsica inc + up to 90 days in the summer bumming around the Italian islands .

It a new right to spend as long as you want on your boat in the summer based in France with min admin .
The long stay visa is designed for temp stays as the article says prospective residents etc , and it’s hassle to get .

Also some folks selling up in Sp /P might want to rebuy in Fr now ( if it becomes live ) .

Also budgetary vise generally for newbies entering boating they can split it to account for a bit for Fr holiday home .
Also those just wanting a villa or what ever currently with zero boating interest might just buy in Fr …..just in case they retire have more time and take up boating .

Many large boat owners in Antibes and other Fr Med marina ( WFH ? Options ) may just buy a bit of Fr real estate to take advantage of the new open season = stay as long as they like .

Its a huge change worthy of mention on here , because there are many Med mobo ers on here .Approaching or reached retirement.

Spend €100 K on a giro or €100 K on a Fr 2 nd home in the N ( rent it out ) if it only for the piece of paper .
Fr property is an investment btw let’s not forget that basic thing .Boats depreciate, bricks / mortar…….you know the rest .

Which is the easiest and most cost effective way to get a French extended stay tourist visa?

1. Apply for the visa with your boat and marina berth as your place of residence, like @Lightwave395

2. Go through the process of buying French property so you can qualify as a "2nd home" owner - then do whatever is required to get the necessary document.

Option 2 seems like way more effort IMO, OK if you already own French property, but otherwise nuts IMO.

... and what do you wave at the authorities in Croatia to prove you have residence in an EU country? A french title deed to a property - good luck

May well work a treat in France, but I can't see a french title deed to a property making it onto the list of documents used in the rest of Europe to enable transit through their countries.

 

[Bouba]

Which is the easiest and most cost effective way to get a French extended stay tourist visa?

1. Apply for the visa with your boat and marina berth as your place of residence, like @Lightwave395

2. Go through the process of buying French property so you can qualify as a "2nd home" owner - then do whatever is required to get the necessary document.

Option 2 seems like way more effort IMO, OK if you already own French property, but otherwise nuts IMO.

... and what do you wave at the authorities in Croatia to prove you have residence in an EU country? A french title deed to a property - good luck

May well work a treat in France, but I can't see a french title deed to a property making it onto the list of documents used in the rest of Europe to enable transit through their countries.

I don’t think that a French title deed will mean anything in Croatia....even if this law is passed...its only France and not Schengen

 

[Portofino]

Which is the easiest and most cost effective way to get a French extended stay tourist visa?

1. Apply for the visa with your boat and marina berth as your place of residence, like @Lightwave395

2. Go through the process of buying French property so you can qualify as a "2nd home" owner - then do whatever is required to get the necessary document.

Option 2 seems like way more effort IMO, OK if you already own French property, but otherwise nuts IMO.

... and what do you wave at the authorities in Croatia to prove you have residence in an EU country? A french title deed to a property - good luck

May well work a treat in France, but I can't see a french title deed to a property making it onto the list of documents used in the rest of Europe to enable transit through their countries.

I guess you can’t see Sunseeker ( Priny + FL ) puttIng buyers with budgets over £2M in touch with French Realtors ?

Eg Chris Evans deliberating over a new 160 ft boat ……coming out with “ I can only spend 90/180 etc ….Nah not worth it mate “

Fairprinseeker sales guy ( when it all goes through) …..Nope “ we can facilitate a way wherby you can spend as much time as you like anchored off Cap Ferat or Corsica , inc 3 months in Sardinia .

I definitely can see this happening.^

Or punter says “ I like Spain but dropping £10 M on a plastic boat i can’t use more than 90/ 180 is silly .
Sales guys say this …..” Try France Cote d Azure sir “ Spend as long as you like .Puts punter in touch with realtors .

Its a marvellous GIFT to Brits .Spend as long as you like in French territory without effecting 90 in 180 in the rest of Schengen by investing in property .Chosen carefully you might like the hard standing accommodation and place .

eg our house in Antibes …..just happens to be boaty as well .

 

[Portofino]

Our boat is accepted as our 2nd home for purposes of long stay visa, but will it be for the proposed change...... Certainly would save us a lot of faff if it does.

That’s likely to close .Dealt separately
The purpose of the LSV is for prospects considering full Fr residence , a sort of preamble to permanence .
A the mo temporarily boat accommodation counts .Why shouldn’t it ?
But after a period of time say 5 yrs on the trot with zero intention of relocating to Fr and entering the full Fr taxation, welfare systems ….it pretty clear to me the authorities will close down this currently used loop hole by U.K. boaters .

Presently it’s too immature after “ D Day “ .As time goes by they will realise the let’s face it call it abuse and deal with it .Close it down .
Say a boats fine for say 2 yrs not indefinitely to live on to find permanent accommodation and residence etc .

As far as the paper work they will inho only want your property tax code .It’s all on line now anyhow in place .No paper needed .Just you passport to link you and anyone else on the title to the property.

Probably a spouse inc if only one is on the title . Like Schengen treat a spouses with EU passports in that only one need have one not both .

But it’s zero hassle to add family members to the property title should that be required.

eg Mr 160 ftr Sunseeker buyer , buys a pied de Terre in both his wife , adult kids and his names from day 1 .
A a fraction of the berth costs bear in mind !

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I guess you can’t see Sunseeker ( Priny + FL ) puttIng buyers with budgets over £2M in touch with French Realtors ?

Eg Chris Evans deliberating over a new 160 ft boat ……coming out with “ I can only spend 90/180 etc ….Nah not worth it mate “

Fairprinseeker sales guy ( when it all goes through) …..Nope “ we can facilitate a way wherby you can spend as much time as you like anchored off Cap Ferat or Corsica , inc 3 months in Sardinia .

I definitely can see this happening.^

Or punter says “ I like Spain but dropping £10 M on a plastic boat i can’t use more than 90/ 180 is silly .
Sales guys say this …..” Try France Cote d Azure sir “ Spend as long as you like .Puts punter in touch with realtors .

Its a marvellous GIFT to Brits .Spend as long as you like in French territory without effecting 90 in 180 in the rest of Schengen by investing in property .Chosen carefully you might like the hard standing accommodation and place .

eg our house in Antibes …..just happens to be boaty as well .

Er ... no

Whatever they come up with (if they actually come up with anything at all) will need to be accepted in the wider Schengen area to allow a right of transit through neighbouring states.

IMO the most likely outcome might be a fast-track extended stay visa system based on property ownership.

I doubt very much that a French document showing title to a French property will be of much use for the wet dream you seem to have in mind. Can you imagine ending up in Sicily with your 2M plastic bath toy and deciding to make a quick business flight out of Palermo, only to arrive at passport control with no passport stamps to show Schengen compliance, no visa, no residency, just a french document showing french property ownership. The border guard is going to be well impressed.

I also think that afterwards, if you are allowed back into the Schengen area, you would probably want to have a word with that salesman who persuaded you to sink 6 or 7 figures into a French property.

Once the French civil servants start trying to wrap their heads round the practicalities of how this can be made to work it will end up being a form of VISA or Residency as anything else is useless outside France - it won't be recognised by other Schengen States.

 

[Portofino]

Er ... no

Whatever they come up with (if they actually come up with anything at all) will need to be accepted in the wider Schengen area to allow a right of transit through neighbouring states.

IMO the most likely outcome might be a fast-track extended stay visa system based on property ownership.

I doubt very much that a French document showing title to a French property will be of much use for the wet dream you seem to have in mind. Can you imagine ending up in Sicily with your 2M plastic bath toy and deciding to make a quick business flight out of Palermo, only to arrive at passport control with no passport stamps to show Schengen compliance, no visa, no residency, just a french document showing french property ownership. The border guard is going to be well impressed.

I also think that afterwards, if you are allowed back into the Schengen area, you would probably want to have a word with that salesman who persuaded you to sink 6 or 7 figures into a French property.

Once the French civil servants start trying to wrap their heads round the practicalities of how this can be made to work it will end up being a form of VISA or Residency as anything else is useless outside France - it won't be recognised by other Schengen States.

You are deliberately being silly with this for reasons only known to yourself.

Of course you are stamped in Fr on arrival Where did I say thats disappearing ? 2nd home owners WANT it to reap the benefits , you bet they will get the T s crossed and I s dotted .


It’s just when it comes to exiting back to the U.K. You are NOT bollocked for overstay because your 2 nd home ownership thingy flags up and exempts you from the 90/180 rule while in Fr …..as it’s purposed .

It’s just I suspect you simply present the bar code from your Fr fiscal property tax .This drops the 90 /180 thing .Open up long stays in Fr and Corsica waters .

Following your on with your example when you arrive in Palmermo , my additional 90/180 in the wider Schengen you may check in with customs to start that clock .Said “ May “ if can be arsed ! ……when it’s clear you have to “ fly out “ you certainly will check in .Hardly hassle @ an airport btw !

.Remember you already have the initial Fr stamp and it’s supporting validation when you went to the home port in Fr .
At the airport on flight day your PP has been stamped in ( yesterday arrival by sea ) and out before take off cos you are not in France .

Theres no overstay as such because any months previously where legit in Fr and yesterday you breezed into a customs office in Scilly to get aother Schengen stamp in the state that’s still playing with 90/180 start the clock .

But any sane person with a Fr holiday home using this scheme , would not overstay in Schengen anyhow or attempt to hide such .

Aside a £10 M plastic fantastic boat with crew could easily nip back to Corsica FWIW and fly from there .

At the mo folks can move all over 99 % of EU through borders land + sea and nobody’s checking .

If you arrive in Fr and leave from Fr 4 months later in reality they have no idea where you have been .

But you can rinse and repeat after a week back in the U.K. owning a 2 d holiday home .Zero travel restrictions to entering leaving Fr .

keep scraping Bagsy .

edit Where‘s the “6-7 “ figure coming from .€25 K for a stone shepherd hut in sticks will generate a fiscal property tax code for the boat owners .

 

[Time Out]

I hate to say it but money isn’t always the first consideration.... they risked the superyacht market collapsing overnight when they confiscated the oligarchs boats...

Not quite, the number of seized / arrested / confiscated boats was very small indeed.

 

[julians]

If this comes in it will be a big positive to a lot of brits - hopefully other countries will do similar

 

[Baggywrinkle]

You are deliberately being silly with this for reasons only known to yourself.

Of course you are stamped in Fr on arrival Where did I say thats disappearing ? 2nd home owners WANT it to reap the benefits , you bet they will get the T s crossed and I s dotted .


It’s just when it comes to exiting back to the U.K. You are NOT bollocked for overstay because your 2 nd home ownership thingy flags up and exempts you from the 90/180 rule while in Fr …..as it’s purposed .

It’s just I suspect you simply present the bar code from your Fr fiscal property tax .This drops the 90 /180 thing .Open up long stays in Fr and Corsica waters .

Following your on with your example when you arrive in Palmermo , my additional 90/180 in the wider Schengen you may check in with customs to start that clock .Said “ May “ if can be arsed ! ……when it’s clear you have to “ fly out “ you certainly will check in .Hardly hassle @ an airport btw !

.Remember you already have the initial Fr stamp and it’s supporting validation when you went to the home port in Fr .
At the airport on flight day your PP has been stamped in ( yesterday arrival by sea ) and out before take off cos you are not in France .

Theres no overstay as such because any months previously where legit in Fr and yesterday you breezed into a customs office in Scilly to get aother Schengen stamp in the state that’s still playing with 90/180 start the clock .

But any sane person with a Fr holiday home using this scheme , would not overstay in Schengen anyhow or attempt to hide such .

Aside a £10 M plastic fantastic boat with crew could easily nip back to Corsica FWIW and fly from there .

At the mo folks can move all over 99 % of EU through borders land + sea and nobody’s checking .

If you arrive in Fr and leave from Fr 4 months later in reality they have no idea where you have been .

But you can rinse and repeat after a week back in the U.K. owning a 2 d holiday home .Zero travel restrictions to entering leaving Fr .

keep scraping Bagsy .

edit Where‘s the “6-7 “ figure coming from .€25 K for a stone shepherd hut in sticks will generate a fiscal property tax code for the boat owners .

OK … time to get the crayons out so even you can understand.

Any new document produced by France based on property ownership has to be introduced into both French immigration law and EU immigration law, not to mention the IT systems that the border controls across the EU use to enforce these laws.

Currently there are three things that constitute valid travel documents. They are referenced in the procedures contained in the Schengen border guards handbook which you can find online, and they provide the unique ID for querying the EU IT systems at border control points. They are:

1. A Passport. This is scanned and your ID is cross-referenced with the VIS and SIS databases. Look the IT systems up if you don’t know what they do – I’ll give you a clue, they contain information on all VISAs issued to 3rd country citizens by EU states and data exchanged on persons and objects of interest by the police forces of EU states.
2. A VISA … if you want to stay longer than the 90/180 as a 3rd country citizen, you currently need a VISA. This is EU wide, now has a common format, and the VISA info is stored in the VIS database mentioned in 1. It is cross-referenced using your ID in your passport and any VISA you carry with you is then checked against the central records.
3. A residence card. Also contains your ID data, is machine readable and enables 3rd country citizens to reside permanently or for a limited time in an EU state. Can also be electronically checked by border guards.

So, ask yourself, how are the French going to ensure that this new rule based on property ownership not only has some form of check by their own border guards, but also passes the checks in the rest of the EU and is also incorporated into the IT systems managed by EU-LISA and used by border posts EU wide. The days of just waving a piece of paper at a border guard are long gone – immigration data is stored centrally, checks are electronic, based on ID and biometric info on passports/residence cards. The whole purpose of IT based border checks is to ensure the paperwork someone is carrying matches central records.

The short answer is that it is not practical to go down the route of introducing a parallel immigration path to existing VISAs and residence cards, and there would be serious resistance from Brussels and other EU states if they tried.

These records would have to be centrally stored so updates, like the sale of a property, would be immediately available to border guards, just like with revocation of a VISA as the border guards just check the paperwork you present against central records. In the next couple of years they will also roll out ETIAS and EES – yet more systems that know nothing of French property ownership.

Each Shengen member state has to operate within the framework of the existing EU immigration systems - they are free to do what they want with country specific VISAs and residency, but expanding the immigration systems of the EU to include cow-sheds (as you so elequently put it) owned by Brits in France is a farce.

These are the reasons I said it would result at most in a fast-track to a VISA and not be some France only Porto Wet Dream Scheme involving boat salesmen working with real estate agents and shady deals to get your extended family on the paperwork. Paperwork in this day and age is meaningless, it's the computer records behind it that count. These are the live systems that need to automatically check your credentials at a border and they are EU wide - not French.

You have also lost sight of the problem the French are trying to solve, they want to make it easier for UK based property owners to spend more time in France and the current VISA issuing system is seen as overcomplicated and slow. The obvious and most simple solution is to speed it up for property owners rather than introduce a new parallel system to VISAs which must be recognised EU wide and incorporated into the standard electronic checks.

I am reminded of a Mark Twain quote “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience”.

So I’ll end this post with a compliment, you are one of the most experienced people on this forum.

This discussion has run it’s course IMO so this is my last post on the subject. I’ll leave it to other readers on this forum to decide which of us has a better grasp on reality.