Med boaters easing of 90/ 180

[Bouba]

I was not referring to the likes of who you mention, I am referring to those that live in Spain, (or elsewhere) and claim all the benefits like heat allowance etc plus of course the driving licence exchange...the cake and eat it brigade....

There was a time...80’s 90’s....where a pensioner couple could winter in an appartement in Spain including all living costs...for what would be their U.K. heating costs alone. But those days ended ....the cost of living in the sun rose...not like England but it’s not like the old days

 

[Portofino]

I was not referring to the likes of who you mention, I am referring to those that live in Spain, (or elsewhere) and claim all the benefits like heat allowance etc plus of course the driving licence exchange...the cake and eat it brigade....

Ah sorry gotcha .
Skimmed “ authorities “ as tax peeps . Then for those other things you mentioned assuming the rules are clear in the T+C , It’s fraud .

 

[billskip]

It’s fraud

For sure, and so many at it with the easy loophole of no proof where when and what claimants were doing.....tiz my belief those made the most noise.

 

[westernman]

I don't understand the fuss or excitement.
If you own a second home in France it is straightforward to get a 6 month Visa.

All that is being proposed is a simplification where you would be automatically entitled to the Visa and not have to bother with any other supporting documentation.

The proposal will almost certainly get watered down before coming in to effect and will probably make practically no difference.

If you want to stay more than 3 months in France, just apply for the Visa. It is not complicated or expensive.

As has been done to death, it won't give you the right to spend more than 90/180 in another Schengen country. But probably cannot be verified anyway.

It is not hard to get a carte de sejour in France. And it is the automatic route to getting permanent residency and then citizenship if you want it. (Been there , done that).

 

[Baggywrinkle]

What were we told when all this nonsence started?

"People used to live and work abroad before FoM ... so what's the problem?"

.... and now we have multiple threads running, moaning about how difficult or inconvenient it is to do just that, and getting all excited because there may be a fast track to a VISA for property owners in France and a Spanish tourist minister wants to do something similar in Spain.

The fact is most European countries have long stay visas, they are what the rest of the world (Americans, Russians, Chinese etc.) use to live in Europe ... and they are not that difficult to obtain - spend lots of money and it is even easier.

Being in the EU brought the cost of 2nd home ownership abroad into the grasp of the not-so-well-off ... and now they are struggling to maintain their lifestyle and forming lobbying groups to try and turn the clock back, maybe they'll get some concessions, maybe not. IMO a fast track visa is the most likely outcome if anything.

Certainly, buying a second home in the EU to get a long stay VISA is a pretty expensive way to go sailing in the med - but not beyond the reach of the well heeled. If I were to have to go down that route however, I would do the following.

My target country would be Italy, as it has the longest coastline and is right in the middle of the mediteranean.

I would apply for an Italian elective residency visa which is aimed at individuals who can support themselves from foreign income - €38k for a couple .... Elective residence – Consolato Generale d'Italia Londra

and move to one of the regions in Italy offering the 7% flat tax rate on all foreign income .... Italy 7% flat tax for pensioners | Accounting Bolla

... then sit out my retirement living in southern Italy permanently, using my 90/180 allowance to cruise the Aegean and Adriatic to the East and Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica to the West - not to mention the entire Italian coastline.

There is nothing stopping you keeping on a property in the U.K and visiting as often as you like, and when it gets to the point where boredom, health or any other issue makes it no longer viable, up sticks and move back to blighty.

 

[Bouba]

The next link I’m going to provide is very political....and I make no apologies because it’s relevant to the discussion....basically, the woman who is tipped to be the next Prime Minister of Holland, says that she will cancel Permanent Residency Cards....now, I don’t know if that is for anyone who might be miscreants or worse...or is a general policy decision....
Dutch election promises new era and shake-up in politics

 

[Portofino]

No one’s moaning on this thread .Not sure why three the nay say doers who have contributed thus far keep attempting to derail this thread reaping up what happened at the end of democratic process of 2020 ? Move on guys .

I simply pointed out if this proposal goes ahead to fruition then it means a far easier access to Med boating , far easier retirement planning , longer stays , longer holidays ( avec WFH ? on the boat ) than would have ordinarily possibly.
I mean what problem is the mayor of Savoie trying to solve by pushing this ? ….if there’s already a visa system in place ?

This is because of the freedom to do short notice trips yr round as and when without the recourse to excess bureaucracy.

Never thought about retiring living in France , opening up the Fr tax bag of worms or ANY other relocation .
There s no need to .
You can increase your leisure boating , extend your season , visit more of France eg Paris etc kinda not feel obliged to blow your 90 in 180 all on the plastic fantastic in France .
As Bouba rightly pointed out spend up 3/4 of the yr abroad .179 days in Fr and 90 elsewhere in Schengen.
Still maintenance your U.K. standard of living .

The Italy thing flat tax has been around for a while .It keep reinventing itself but note there’s always a time limit .In baggy link 10 yrs ,You need to think very carefully if you have significant assets as there wealth tax is punitive should you drop into that after the honeymoon. There’s a reason the places the punt have shrinking populations .

I still maintain a HNWI with budget to fund a 100 ftr + thinking CdA based could easily have the where with all to get involved with French real estate .

The thing about the touted long stay VISA touted on here as an alternative is the time restrictions and uncertainty if the goal post are gonna move ,plus the hassle .

As I said ( yet to be disclosed ) I speculate once set up probably online once you have a French or similar Spanish property life will be far simpler travelling in the EU …..spending the majority of time in the property state and waters .

Its all you need very minimal, zero hassle .
If you get a return on said property via letting and / or capitol appreciation …+ never see inside a embassy ..what’s not to like ?

 

[Portofino]

The next link I’m going to provide is very political....and I make no apologies because it’s relevant to the discussion....basically, the woman who is tipped to be the next Prime Minister of Holland, says that she will cancel Permanent Residency Cards....now, I don’t know if that is for anyone who might be miscreants or worse...or is a general policy decision....
Dutch election promises new era and shake-up in politics

I don’t think this Fr ( and possibly Sp ) proposals is anything about permanent residence.That’s a completely different issue .

A s holiday home owners its targeting none residents and the assumption is that status if the proposal comes to fruition never changes . They fly under Fr taxation except for the usual local urban taxes associated with property ownership.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The next link I’m going to provide is very political....and I make no apologies because it’s relevant to the discussion....basically, the woman who is tipped to be the next Prime Minister of Holland, says that she will cancel Permanent Residency Cards....now, I don’t know if that is for anyone who might be miscreants or worse...or is a general policy decision....
Dutch election promises new era and shake-up in politics

Would be interesting to know what "a hard line on immigration, vowing to introduce a two-tier asylum system, cancel permanent residence permits and take better control over all forms of migration." actually means.

It's eerily familiar to what was campaigned on in the U.K. and what has always been a key conservative policy - all this has delivered however is a collection of ill thought out actions resulting in multiple losses in court, the Windrush scandal, a war on asylum seekers, attempts to leave the European Convention on Human Rights and attempts to traffick asylum seekers to Rwanda or the Falkland Islands.

There will always be a path for nice, white, middle class migrants to move between countries with minimal problems - so this rhetoric is certainly not targeted at your average UK boater - for the moment.

What we are increasingly seeing in the nicer parts of Western Europe however is Gentrification on a much wider scale than previously witnessed - and if the various center-right populists decide that wealthy "Golden Passport/Visa" individuals are responsible for natives being unable to afford to live in the areas in which they were born and brought up, then it will become an issue on agendas of the populist politicians all over Europe and develop into a full-on class war. The current cozy relationship between the political class and the ruling class could easily hit the buffers and then all bets are off on the direction of any government policies.

2nd home ownership is always contentious as they are seasonally occupied, price the locals out and don't contribute to the local economy or community like a permanently occupied home. The owners of such properties are often despised by the locals for this reason, and if the owner is also a "foreigner" then they are doubly despised.

Anyone remember the old joke ... "Come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in Wales"?

So IMO while the tourist industry is all for attracting anyone they can to their country, the general population who live there are usually less than enthusiastic and will vote accordingly.

 

[Poignard]

The next link I’m going to provide is very political....and I make no apologies because it’s relevant to the discussion....basically, the woman who is tipped to be the next Prime Minister of Holland, says that she will cancel Permanent Residency Cards....now, I don’t know if that is for anyone who might be miscreants or worse...or is a general policy decision....
Dutch election promises new era and shake-up in politics

That's interesting.

Does she intend to annul existing residency cards or stop new ones being issued?

 

[Portofino]

As I predicted.
Article “ K “ of the FR immigration bill has been passed / went through last night .

This will mean FR holiday / 2 nd home owners will be exempt the 90/180 rule .

 

[westernman]

Translation:

"Art. L. 312-4-1. - Long-stay visas are issued automatically to British nationals who own a secondary residence in France. They are therefore exempt from having to apply for a long-stay visa."

I don't understand. So you get a long-stay visa without asking for it??

 

[petem]

Translation:

"Art. L. 312-4-1. - Long-stay visas are issued automatically to British nationals who own a secondary residence in France. They are therefore exempt from having to apply for a long-stay visa."

I don't understand. So you get a long-stay visa without asking for it??

That's great news and hopefully the Spanish will do something similar.

 

[Clancy Moped]

Translation:

"Art. L. 312-4-1. - Long-stay visas are issued automatically to British nationals who own a secondary residence in France. They are therefore exempt from having to apply for a long-stay visa."

I don't understand. So you get a long-stay visa without asking for it??

Presumably you'll get something from the local prefectures office, otherwise carrying your deeds around to cross borders will be a Pita.

 

[Portofino]

Translation:

"Art. L. 312-4-1. - Long-stay visas are issued automatically to British nationals who own a secondary residence in France. They are therefore exempt from having to apply for a long-stay visa."

I don't understand. So you get a long-stay visa without asking for it??

The intension of the LSV is for stuff like education, and precisely for folks looking to actually reside in FR ,
Its wasn’t intended as a get around for extended holidays which ( turning a blind eye to ) its being used or more correctly abused !
I know a few boat owners on here have used the LSV up to now …..3 yrs on the bounce post 2021 .
Cant see that being sustainable imho .

@ Clancy M The FB group are suggesting a link with the two property taxes with the PP data which flagged up the exemption.
Once you are on the system that’s it .Owners might initially take property tax copies of doc until it’s bedded in

That's great news and hopefully the Spanish will do something similar.

Certainly in a finger out of the dam ….others might follow highly likely.

Theres one more thing .
i will try say it but suspect it’s gonna fly over many heads .
Here goes .
It only applies to pre 2021 .
If they allowed say a Brit today to buy a €10000 house and thus qualify in 2023 /24 , because we are 3rd parties and only Brits get the exemption it’s discriminating against other 3 ps eg Americans , Australian etc .Who might take FR to the EU court .
Because Brits pre 2021 were NOT 3 rd parties then it’s not discriminating Americans , other 3 p .

I know I haven’t worded this well but the smarter on here will “ understand ”

So in essence i don’t think you ( a Brit ) can buy a FR second home to get the advantage of this .
Its only of existing .Hope I am wrong on this .
But do figure other 3 P s who buy second homes still having to abide by the 90/180 .

 

[Bouba]

The intension of the LSV is for stuff like education, and precisely for folks looking to actually reside in FR ,
Its wasn’t intended as a get around for extended holidays which ( turning a blind eye to ) its being used or more correctly abused !
I know a few boat owners on here have used the LSV up to now …..3 yrs on the bounce post 2021 .
Cant see that being sustainable imho .

@ Clancy M The FB group are suggesting a link with the two property taxes with the PP data which flagged up the exemption.
Once you are on the system that’s it .Owners might initially take property tax copies of doc until it’s bedded in

Certainly in a finger out of the dam ….others might follow highly likely.

Theres one more thing .
i will try say it but suspect it’s gonna fly over many heads .
Here goes .
It only applies to pre 2021 .
If they allowed say a Brit today to buy a €10000 house and thus qualify in 2023 /24 , because we are 3rd parties and only Brits get the exemption it’s discriminating against other 3 ps eg Americans , Australian etc .Who might take FR to the EU court .
Because Brits pre 2021 were NOT 3 rd parties then it’s not discriminating Americans , other 3 p .

I know I haven’t worded this well but the smarter on here will “ understand ”

So in essence i don’t think you ( a Brit ) can buy a FR second home to get the advantage of this .
Its only of existing .Hope I am wrong on this .
But do figure other 3 P s who buy second homes still having to abide by the 90/180 .

That’s an interesting point

 

[jfm]

Porto, if I'm following your point correctly (it's not clear...), how would Americans/Australians/other 3P ever have the standing to be heard in EU courts on a discrimination point like this? They wouldn't.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The intension of the LSV is for stuff like education, and precisely for folks looking to actually reside in FR ,
Its wasn’t intended as a get around for extended holidays which ( turning a blind eye to ) its being used or more correctly abused !
I know a few boat owners on here have used the LSV up to now …..3 yrs on the bounce post 2021 .
Cant see that being sustainable imho .

@ Clancy M The FB group are suggesting a link with the two property taxes with the PP data which flagged up the exemption.
Once you are on the system that’s it .Owners might initially take property tax copies of doc until it’s bedded in

Certainly in a finger out of the dam ….others might follow highly likely.

Theres one more thing .
i will try say it but suspect it’s gonna fly over many heads .
Here goes .
It only applies to pre 2021 .
If they allowed say a Brit today to buy a €10000 house and thus qualify in 2023 /24 , because we are 3rd parties and only Brits get the exemption it’s discriminating against other 3 ps eg Americans , Australian etc .Who might take FR to the EU court .
Because Brits pre 2021 were NOT 3 rd parties then it’s not discriminating Americans , other 3 p .

I know I haven’t worded this well but the smarter on here will “ understand ”

So in essence i don’t think you ( a Brit ) can buy a FR second home to get the advantage of this .
Its only of existing .Hope I am wrong on this .
But do figure other 3 P s who buy second homes still having to abide by the 90/180 .

Not sure the European court will be able to do anything for 3rd country nationals. Each individual EU country already applies different rules to different 3rd country citizens relating to their own VISA and residency requirements. Getting a VISA for, or residency in another country is not a right.

EU governments could be taken to the EU court if they tried to discriminate between citizens of EU member countries, but the EU is toothless when it comes to a member countries own VISA and residency choices - that is down to economic and political need of the individual country concerned and is the reason why there is so much arm-twisting with citizenship of EU member countries being sold via "investment schemes". Citizenship bestows EU FoM on those new passport holders, so the EU is not happy and is trying to clamp down on that, but long stay VISAs or residency permits for individual countries don't bestow EU FoM on the holders, so are not really an issue for the rest of the EU - each EU country is free to offer any scheme it likes to any 3rd country it likes, so if France decides to favour Americans over Syrians then they are free to do that, and Syrians will have no legal avenue for a challenge.

That is my understanding of the system as it is at the moment, and if taken to the extreme, the withdrawal agreement itself is already favouring one 3rd country over others just because they used to be members. I also wouldn't expect the EU to offer anything to any other 3rd country without some form of reciprocal agreement.

 

[petem]

Theres one more thing .
i will try say it but suspect it’s gonna fly over many heads .
Here goes .
It only applies to pre 2021 .
If they allowed say a Brit today to buy a €10000 house and thus qualify in 2023 /24 , because we are 3rd parties and only Brits get the exemption it’s discriminating against other 3 ps eg Americans , Australian etc .Who might take FR to the EU court .
Because Brits pre 2021 were NOT 3 rd parties then it’s not discriminating Americans , other 3 p .

I know I haven’t worded this well but the smarter on here will “ understand ”

So in essence i don’t think you ( a Brit ) can buy a FR second home to get the advantage of this .
Its only of existing .Hope I am wrong on this .
But do figure other 3 P s who buy second homes still having to abide by the 90/180 .

Is there some other bit of legislation that imposes the pre 2021 restriction that you refer to?

 

[Portofino]

Porto, if I'm following your point correctly (it's not clear...), how would Americans/Australians/other 3P ever have the standing to be heard in EU courts on a discrimination point like this? They wouldn't.

+@PeteM s Q .
They reworded it last night after a MP stud up and pointed out some discrimination thingy of ONLY allowing Brits this exemption.
Not sure without re trawling the FB pages ( some posters lawyers too ) of the exact nitty gritty .It will wash out in the mechanisms later which have yet to be written .

The pre 21 thing means in future there can be no discrimination suit thrown at them going Fwds .

Its basically putting Brit property owners back into the exact same position regarding access to the property as they had before 21 .Other 3 ps are the same in a nowts changed as they were on 90/180 before the 21 event .


Maybe other 3 ps that overstay and are picked up in EU by official Dom like immigrants ( I think ) have access legally to a appeal in the EU thus opening up law suits .Dunno .

Also allowing if that’s the right word of any Tom Dick and Harry Brit to clean up on cheap FR properties going Fwds is gonna fuel all this young persons being out priced of there local housing malarkey .

Or not opening any flood gates and 9issing off holiday home competition neighbours like SP and IT ……I would have thought?

As I said I do hope I have gotten this little nuance wrong .