MCA response to charging for berths on the ARC

[starfire]

Sailorman, they will go for you and they will prosecute.

See here:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/mcga07-home/newsandpublications/mcgaprosecutions/prosecutions2011.htm

As an aside, I often wondered what happened to Colin Thomas from Straits Sail.

Now I know.

But, it proves that getting MCA cat 0 is very hard to do.

Shame really, His Handbook for Gib & the surroundings was excellent.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

I think you will find that most definitions of "magistrate" use the word "judge".

Sorry alan_d, that is poop, in England and Wales anyway. Magistrates are unpaid Justices of the Peace from all walks of life. Judges are qualified, salaried, and usually full time.

 

[macd]

I think you will find that most definitions of "magistrate" use the word "judge".

I daresay they do, "judge" being the verb that sums up what they do. Judges (the particular noun) they are not.

Oddly enough, judges don't judge in the everyday sense of the word in most criminal proceedings: that's what the jury's for.

Savageseadog is also trpping over his horsehair: in Crown Courts and above judges decide on matters of law (as opposed to matters of fact); magistrates (in magistrates' courts, oddly enough) do not, but take legal advice from the clerk to the court (except in the relatively rare case of stipendiary magistrates, who are legally qualified).

The maximum sentence that may be imposed in the magistrates' court is six months imprisonment for a single offence, but a year for two or more offences. If the magistrates decided that a sentence greater than these powers was appropriate, they would commit the matter to the Crown Court. In certain cases a defendant can also elect to be tried before a judge and jury at the Crown Court.

Scotland has a different set-up.

 

[capnsensible]

As an aside, I often wondered what happened to Colin Thomas from Straits Sail.

Now I know.

But, it proves that getting MCA cat 0 is very hard to do.

Shame really, His Handbook for Gib & the surroundings was excellent.

He and the Handbook are alive and well. 2012 version is on the streets.....or pontoons for the pedants

 

[capnsensible]

Surely he can put you in gaol.

No, thats the man with number one on his jersey.......

 

[starfire]

He and the Handbook are alive and well. 2012 version is on the streets.....or pontoons for the pedants

Thanks for that.

Last time I was in Gib & asked after him, I was told he gone to the Caribbean & not returned, I did get a free copy of the 2009 Handbook from Shepherds.


Good memories of doing Day Skipper Motor with Strait Sail a long time ago.


If you do bump into Colin, wish him well from me.

 

[ffiill]

Perhaps it is because I live in the sticks but such issues seem to wash over me.
If I was off on a long trip and needed crew so long as they paid their share of costs I would be quite happy-in fact of far greater importance would be our ability to get on with one another.
If sailing becomes a matter of paying crew and conforming to MCA leglislation!
Having said all this if your boat is not registered formally in the UK does the MCA have any authority ?

 

[westernman]

Perhaps it is because I live in the sticks but such issues seem to wash over me.
If I was off on a long trip and needed crew so long as they paid their share of costs I would be quite happy-in fact of far greater importance would be our ability to get on with one another.
If sailing becomes a matter of paying crew and conforming to MCA leglislation!
Having said all this if your boat is not registered formally in the UK does the MCA have any authority ?

if the crew pay more than their share of the costs**, then it is a commercial charter. A British flagged boat is then subject to the MCA code of practice.

This means the boat must be certified (i.e. coded) to conform to all the requirements (and this for more than 120 miles from a safe haven - i.e. Category 0), is expensive to do and for an AWB may be technically difficult or impossible. It also means that the skipper needs a YM Offshore qualification which is commercially endorsed, he also needs some medical training and an endorsement for that. The medical kit required costs around 2000 pounds from Ocean Safety. There must be two liferafts - each capable of hold the entire crew/passenger complement. There must also be a stability book which is expensive to get. The first mate must also be a YM if more than 120 miles from a safe haven.

The requirements for commercial charter more than 120 miles offshore from other flag states (e.g. Spain) are much simpler and less demanding.


** fair share of costs for the voyage (i.e. fuel and food). Not other running costs associated with the boat which would be incurred anyway if the voyage was not undertaken. I.e. insurance costs, costs of place in the home port etc etc.

 

[andygc]

Having said all this if your boat is not registered formally in the UK does the MCA have any authority ?

You'd need to read the definitions in the Merchant Shipping Act. If you meet the criteria for being a person who can be the owner of a British ship then, unless your vessel is registered by another state, it's a British ship.

(1)A ship is a British ship if—
(a)the ship is registered in the United Kingdom under Part II; or
(b)the ship is, as a Government ship, registered in the United Kingdom in pursuance of an Order in Council under section 308; or
(c)the ship is registered under the law of a relevant British possession; or
(d)the ship is a small ship other than a fishing vessel and—
(i)is not registered under Part II, but
(ii)is wholly owned by qualified owners, and
(iii)is not registered under the law of a country outside the United Kingdom.
(2)For the purposes of subsection (1)(d) above—
“qualified owners” means persons of such description qualified to own British ships as is prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State for the purposes of that paragraph; and“small ship” means a ship less than 24 metres in length (“length” having the same meaning as in the tonnage regulations).

 

[webcraft]

. . . It also means that the skipper needs a YM Offshore qualification which is commercially endorsed . . .

Is YM Ocean not required? Guess not as it can't be commercially endorsed.

- W

 

[Pete R]

Is YM Ocean not required? - W

I would have thought so.

Guess not as it can't be commercially endorsed.
- W

Yes it can.

 

[Doug_Stormforce]

if the crew pay more than their share of the costs**, then it is a commercial charter. A British flagged boat is then subject to the MCA code of practice.

This means the boat must be certified (i.e. coded) to conform to all the requirements (and this for more than 120 miles from a safe haven - i.e. Category 0), is expensive to do and for an AWB may be technically difficult or impossible. It also means that the skipper needs a YM Offshore qualification which is commercially endorsed, he also needs some medical training and an endorsement for that. The medical kit required costs around 2000 pounds from Ocean Safety. There must be two liferafts - each capable of hold the entire crew/passenger complement. There must also be a stability book which is expensive to get. The first mate must also be a YM if more than 120 miles from a safe haven.

The requirements for commercial charter more than 120 miles offshore from other flag states (e.g. Spain) are much simpler and less demanding.


** fair share of costs for the voyage (i.e. fuel and food). Not other running costs associated with the boat which would be incurred anyway if the voyage was not undertaken. I.e. insurance costs, costs of place in the home port etc etc.

Cat 0 is 150 miles from a safe haven

and the skipper would need to be YM Ocean (Commercially endorsed).

Cat 0 is not particularly hard for a AWB but it is costly.

 

[westernman]

Cat 0 is 150 miles from a safe haven

and the skipper would need to be YM Ocean (Commercially endorsed).

Cat 0 is not particularly hard for a AWB but it is costly.

Cat 2 is less than 60 miles from safe haven.
Cat 1 is less than 120 miles from safe haven.

And then there is Cat 0, which requires a stability book and the ability to float with the weather deck at least a certain distance above the water with the boat holed. Usually this means watertight compartments which are hard to retrofit satisfactorily to an AWB.

Cat 1 is just a matter of extra safety equipment (second liferaft etc) over Cat 2.

In the UK most charter boats are coded to Cat 2. Very few to Cat 1 or Cat 0.

 

[alant]

Following a thread on the ARC where the charging for berths question came up here is the MCA's confirmation of the position.

Essentially you can't charge and shouldn't pay more than shared costs incurred (fuel, food) unless the vessel is coded. The benefit of sailing on a coded yacht is that it will have safety equipment to a commercial standard and it will be manned by qualified skippers. I'm not against hitching on private yachts but they shouldn't be trying to make a profit from it. It's like running your private car as a taxi.
The interesting part is that you can't include mooring, insurance and maintenance costs.

MCA quote
"The Maritime & Coastguard Agency, on behalf of the UK government, has jurisdiction on all UK ships wherever they may be in the world. We call them ships as that is what a boat/yacht is legally known as.

Vessels taking part in the ARC, that are UK ships (defined in Section 85(2) of the Merchant Shipping Act 1995) will fall under UK Merchant Shipping legislation.

If the vessel is being used as a "pleasure vessel" (defined in regulation 2(1) of SI 1998/2771) then the direct costs associated with the voyage may be shared. Such costs are considered to mean fuel and food costs, but not to include mooring, insurance, maintenance costs as they are not directly incurred as a result of the voyage. If the vessel is not being used as a "pleasure vessel" it is considered to be on a commercial voyage and therefore would be required to comply with the relevant legislation. The easiest means of compliance with some of the legislation for commercial voyages is to be certified under the MCA/UK Small Commercial Vessel Codes of Practice."

Some MCA rules do not apply, when in a Race, going to a Race, or returning from a Race. Matbe ask them for a ruling with those in mind, since the ARC surely is a Race.

 

[onesea]

ARC surely is a Race.

Atlantic Rally for Cruisers is a race?

Please do not take this personally...

As I understood you get lower insurance for crossing this way...
There is certainly safety in numbers...

Or is it more like the Gum Ball Rally
Having not been involved with it I would not know...

 

[Pete R]

Cat 2 is less than 60 miles from safe haven.
Cat 1 is less than 120 miles from safe haven.

Just to clarify, can you please say where you get this from?

 

[westernman]

Just to clarify, can you please say where you get this from?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/blue.pdf

Chapter 3.2

By the way I got it wrong - it is not 120 miles but 150 miles for Cat 1.

 

[capnsensible]

Is YM Ocean not required? Guess not as it can't be commercially endorsed.

- W

Why not??

 

[capnsensible]

The stability category is actually very difficult for the average production yacht. Despite hundreds of them crossing oceans safely every year. The MCA have got it wrong and wont relent.

 

[Sandy]

Sorry alan_d, that is poop, in England and Wales anyway. Magistrates are unpaid Justices of the Peace from all walks of life. Judges are qualified, salaried, and usually full time.

Unless they are a 'Stipendiary Magistrate'

"A Magistrate who is a qualified barrister or solicitor appointed to try cases in the Magistrates Court. Such persons are paid (a stipend) for their services and have the equivalent power of three lay magistrates."

Source: http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Stipendiary Magistrate