prr
New member
It doesn't really look good with Speedos....... Maybe with the knife tucked down the front .. ?
Marina man overboard
- Thread starter Graham_Wright
- Start date
Cariadco
Active member
Which Regs/Acts?
Sorry about this, but I believe HASAWA was more to do with duty of care, namely for employees.
Not too convinced that customers are covered here, and as for the management of H&S, that was, predominantly to do with Risk assesments, again for protection of employees.
However, having said all that, I'm unsure as to what Regs or Acts, that a marina has to comply with, wrt customer protection.
Eh?
I don't think ISO1800 exists. ISO18000 relates to RFID tags. OHSAS18001 is a safety management standard, but carries no legal weight.
HASAWA 1974 is the law, and covers this, as pointed out above (along with The Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999, and no doubt many others - glad to be away from it!). The marina operators are required to ensure the safety of paying punters (us) and Joe Public as well as their employees & contractors. As you say, though, there is evidence that the risk exists - railings here we come
One ladder per finger in our marina - It would be a bloody long swim to get to it if you fell in at an inconvenient place (and you can't see it!). I plan on making for our stern ladder which can be released from the water if I fall in near the boat. Pretty much goosed, otherwise unless I can find another boat to clamber up.
Andy
Sorry about this, but I believe HASAWA was more to do with duty of care, namely for employees.
Not too convinced that customers are covered here, and as for the management of H&S, that was, predominantly to do with Risk assesments, again for protection of employees.
However, having said all that, I'm unsure as to what Regs or Acts, that a marina has to comply with, wrt customer protection.
dleroc
Member
Section 3 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 covers contractors, visitors and members of the public as I mentioned earlier in this thread.
misterg
Active member
^ Wot he said 
(I too, used to have a professional interest in that sort of stuff - thankfully no more ).
Andy
(I too, used to have a professional interest in that sort of stuff - thankfully no more
).Andy
Seajet
...
It's not every thread where you get mentions of Health & Safety mixed with suggestions of sticking a knife down one's swimming trunks...
dleroc
Member
It's not every thread where you get mentions of Health & Safety mixed with suggestions of sticking a knife down one's swimming trunks...
But I think the knife had a sheath - didn't it?
simon barefoot
New member
It's not every thread where you get mentions of Health & Safety mixed with suggestions of sticking a knife down one's swimming trunks...
Maybe trying to get us to convert...
Seajet
...
stuartwineberg
Well-known member
+1
I "lost" a large friend in the gap between our boat and the finger at Haslar on a dark night as well. The ladders here are portable and drop down into the water, hooking onto a pontoon cleat and bracing against the pontoon float. With one other person we could hold it in place while he climbed out. Worked well but it took a while to figure out how to use them. More ladders have now appeard in fixed locations - appear to be made out of fibreglass so no galvanic issues. I think Haslar actually do a pretty good job here. I agree completely with the comment here about mentally rehearsing the issue - I now know where the ladders are - I didnt before.
I "lost" a large friend in the gap between our boat and the finger at Haslar on a dark night as well. The ladders here are portable and drop down into the water, hooking onto a pontoon cleat and bracing against the pontoon float. With one other person we could hold it in place while he climbed out. Worked well but it took a while to figure out how to use them. More ladders have now appeard in fixed locations - appear to be made out of fibreglass so no galvanic issues. I think Haslar actually do a pretty good job here. I agree completely with the comment here about mentally rehearsing the issue - I now know where the ladders are - I didnt before.
Roberto
Well-known member
I vividly remember the frightening description of an incident given by a not-so-young couple: winter, night, emptu marina, they were walking on the pontoon when the heavily dressed lady falls in the water.
The husband grabs her hands, tries to lift her out of the water once, twice, but she is too heavy. She begins losing sensitivity in her legs, then has uncontrollable movements of the hands and arms.
The husband is there at a one foot distance and cannot do anything but look.
In a last final effort, he manages to pull her slightly over the pontoon, then grabs one leg, eventually rescuing her.
I wonder if it's worse being in the water or on the pontoon during such moments
The husband grabs her hands, tries to lift her out of the water once, twice, but she is too heavy. She begins losing sensitivity in her legs, then has uncontrollable movements of the hands and arms.
The husband is there at a one foot distance and cannot do anything but look.
In a last final effort, he manages to pull her slightly over the pontoon, then grabs one leg, eventually rescuing her.
I wonder if it's worse being in the water or on the pontoon during such moments
Seajet
...
Thankyou YBW forums...
Another thing which worries me in marinas is fire spreading from boat to boat; perhaps after this thread we'll hopefully be more wary next time we enter a marina, and note where ladders and fire extinguishers are...
Another thing which worries me in marinas is fire spreading from boat to boat; perhaps after this thread we'll hopefully be more wary next time we enter a marina, and note where ladders and fire extinguishers are...
dleroc
Member
It's been interesting reading through what appears to be a completely ignored 'can of worms' re this subject and one which perhaps deserves further attention.
Speaking as a ex Health and Safety person I always tried to apply a degree of common sense in assessing risks. There is a misconception that all hazards must be elimininated, but the law does not require this. It merely requires for the person in control of the undertaking (the marina owner) to properly assess risks and put in place suitable and sufficient precautions to prevent the worst from happening if the risk is deemed to be significant.
This requires having some experience of the hazards and risks present in marinas, and the variety of people using the facilities. Users have a responsibilty to act responsibly. What those risks might be could also include any past history of incidents in that or marinas in general.
In unique situations like marinas the HSE often encourage Marina Owners Associations to draw up their own guidance which can then be used as an industry guide to best practice, rather than umpteen standards being developed nationwide.
From the incidents already described on this thread it does seem that Marina owners do have some questions to answer. It would be commercially beneficial for them to demonstrate that their safety facilities have been well thought through.
Just to add to the expected storm my post might create, I would add that if any of the incidents described above happened in the UK and the victim was taken to hospital as a result, it could be an incident which the marina owner would have to legally report under the Reporting of Incidents and Dangerous Occurrences Regs, 1985.
Hard hat on!
Speaking as a ex Health and Safety person I always tried to apply a degree of common sense in assessing risks. There is a misconception that all hazards must be elimininated, but the law does not require this. It merely requires for the person in control of the undertaking (the marina owner) to properly assess risks and put in place suitable and sufficient precautions to prevent the worst from happening if the risk is deemed to be significant.
This requires having some experience of the hazards and risks present in marinas, and the variety of people using the facilities. Users have a responsibilty to act responsibly. What those risks might be could also include any past history of incidents in that or marinas in general.
In unique situations like marinas the HSE often encourage Marina Owners Associations to draw up their own guidance which can then be used as an industry guide to best practice, rather than umpteen standards being developed nationwide.
From the incidents already described on this thread it does seem that Marina owners do have some questions to answer. It would be commercially beneficial for them to demonstrate that their safety facilities have been well thought through.
Just to add to the expected storm my post might create, I would add that if any of the incidents described above happened in the UK and the victim was taken to hospital as a result, it could be an incident which the marina owner would have to legally report under the Reporting of Incidents and Dangerous Occurrences Regs, 1985.
Hard hat on!
Burnham Bob
Active member
interesting thread, but in my experience the biggest danger is very wobbly finger pontoons. having boats moored to them seems to calm them down, but recently SWMBO hopped ashore to a vacant finger pontoon and simply couldn't keep her balance.
luckily she didn't fall in but had to take the line onto the main jetty and i had to take over from there once we had got secure.
my balance is better but even i had to crawl on my hands and knees to get to the stern cleat.
luckily she didn't fall in but had to take the line onto the main jetty and i had to take over from there once we had got secure.
my balance is better but even i had to crawl on my hands and knees to get to the stern cleat.
RichardS
N/A
It even covers uninvited members of the public, for example trespassers and thieves!
Richard
mainsail
New member
There but for the grace....
On Friday Jan 4th 2013 a body was fished out of the 12-foot-deep water at our local marina.
It was that of a live-aboard yachtsman whose boat was semi-permanently moored at the marina about 200 yards away from mine. An inquest has been opened and a post mortem is being carried out - the results of which are not yet known. So far we don't know what the cause of death was, or how long he had been in the water.
.....All I do know is that he could easily have been me.
I like to think of myself as a fairly fit 72-year-old . On a misty November morning two years ago I was just going around the deck of my boat fastening down the cockpit cover. Everything was covered with a fine water droplets. Stepping off the stern onto the pontoon I somehow missed my footing. I might have stepped inadvertently onto a power cable which rolled underneath my foot. Whatever the reason my left foot shot out from underneath me and I did a belly flop onto the pontoon - banging my ribs and winding myself in the process.
In fact I had ended up finely balanced on the galvanised steel edge of the pontoon with my left leg and left arm dangling in the water . I was conscious of the fact that, if I made a wrong move, my centre-of-gravity would easily roll me into the black, 12-feet-deep, "fresh" (not salt) water. There was no one around.
Luckily I just about managed to extend my free arm and free leg as far as I could to counterbalance the gravitational forces trying to roll me into the water and eventually staggered, bruised, and badly shaken, to my feet. The whole thing had been totally unexpected . It had happened in a split second...... It was the closest to drowning I've yet come in 50 years of sailing and boating.
So what have I done about it? Well I now always wear a padded Baltic buoyancy waistcoat so it'll cushion my ageing ribs if it happens again - and give me some instant positive buoyancy without having to wait for some CO2 firing mechanism to function - or not.
But my experience - and last week's tragic fatality - has prompted me to also look at how I would get out of the water if I'd lost my battle with gravity and had rolled into the water. There are about 30 finger moorings on the pontoon leg where I'm berthed . There is one "safety ladder" - painted yellow. But it's on the other side of the leg. To reach it, one would have to swim all the way around the hammer-head.
Then there would be the mighty feat of strength involved in hauling myself, fully clothed, out of the water unaided. Even in my sixties I had enough arm-strength to heave myself out of a warm swimming pool - but now, ten years on, in a very cold marina, well I'm not so sure.
The man who lost his life in our marina was just 57 . It certainly makes you think.
On Friday Jan 4th 2013 a body was fished out of the 12-foot-deep water at our local marina.
It was that of a live-aboard yachtsman whose boat was semi-permanently moored at the marina about 200 yards away from mine. An inquest has been opened and a post mortem is being carried out - the results of which are not yet known. So far we don't know what the cause of death was, or how long he had been in the water.
.....All I do know is that he could easily have been me.
I like to think of myself as a fairly fit 72-year-old . On a misty November morning two years ago I was just going around the deck of my boat fastening down the cockpit cover. Everything was covered with a fine water droplets. Stepping off the stern onto the pontoon I somehow missed my footing. I might have stepped inadvertently onto a power cable which rolled underneath my foot. Whatever the reason my left foot shot out from underneath me and I did a belly flop onto the pontoon - banging my ribs and winding myself in the process.
In fact I had ended up finely balanced on the galvanised steel edge of the pontoon with my left leg and left arm dangling in the water . I was conscious of the fact that, if I made a wrong move, my centre-of-gravity would easily roll me into the black, 12-feet-deep, "fresh" (not salt) water. There was no one around.
Luckily I just about managed to extend my free arm and free leg as far as I could to counterbalance the gravitational forces trying to roll me into the water and eventually staggered, bruised, and badly shaken, to my feet. The whole thing had been totally unexpected . It had happened in a split second...... It was the closest to drowning I've yet come in 50 years of sailing and boating.
So what have I done about it? Well I now always wear a padded Baltic buoyancy waistcoat so it'll cushion my ageing ribs if it happens again - and give me some instant positive buoyancy without having to wait for some CO2 firing mechanism to function - or not.
But my experience - and last week's tragic fatality - has prompted me to also look at how I would get out of the water if I'd lost my battle with gravity and had rolled into the water. There are about 30 finger moorings on the pontoon leg where I'm berthed . There is one "safety ladder" - painted yellow. But it's on the other side of the leg. To reach it, one would have to swim all the way around the hammer-head.
Then there would be the mighty feat of strength involved in hauling myself, fully clothed, out of the water unaided. Even in my sixties I had enough arm-strength to heave myself out of a warm swimming pool - but now, ten years on, in a very cold marina, well I'm not so sure.
The man who lost his life in our marina was just 57 . It certainly makes you think.
BlueSkyNick
Active member
This is an old thread and I havent re-read it all so this may have already been said:-
If there is no easily accessible ladder head for the nearest boat with a swim platform. Nobody is going to mind if it is used to save somebody.
Also, any people ashore should use the life buoy and/or throwing lines of any boat, and not worry about getting somebody else's property wet.
If there is no easily accessible ladder head for the nearest boat with a swim platform. Nobody is going to mind if it is used to save somebody.
Also, any people ashore should use the life buoy and/or throwing lines of any boat, and not worry about getting somebody else's property wet.
fireball
New member
I'd have a look at your electric cable if I were you ... try and remove anything that will be in your normal step area.
Also - as has been mentioned earlier in this old thread - you can always use the swimladder/platform of a boat near you - so why not have a quick look at others and your own arrangements.
As we have a walk through stern - I reverse into the berth so we can step off at the same level - this reduces the difficulty in making the transition - it's not foolproof as there is still a gap - but the risk is significantly reduced.
colind3782
Well-known member
What's wrong with fitting your own ladder on or near your own boat?
PeterWright
Well-known member
Quite right, Graham.
But a marina is somebody's place of work and then if you read the Health and Safety at Work Act, you will find that it places a duty on employers to ensure "as far as reasonably practucable" that his operations do not adversely affect the safety of the public. I don't believe it specifically mentions the safety of customers, but the requirement regarding the public includes them.
I know of one marina where, following the sad loss of a client, the local authority environmental health officer (not HSE) turned up to investigate. His initial requirement was for railings all round the pontoons. Fortunately the marina operator had the courage to challenge this nonsense, which would have made berthing a very hazardous operation, so in the end, the inclusion of additional ladders was the agreed improvement.
I like the OP's idea that careful consideration should be given to the visibility of the ladders from the water and I guess that many of these events occur after dark (assisted by the nectar from the local hostelry?)
OK, so I was trigger happy in posting this, but more or less in line with dleroc's much more accurate description of part 3 of H&SAW act which places a duty on employers to protect "others" (includes public and customers) from the consequences of their operations.
Thank you dleroc.
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Seajet
...
As I've mentioned before, at a marina near me I heard years ago the total of lives lost was 3; may be more now.
Icy pontoons were a factor in at least some of those 3 separate deaths, all liveaboards.
A chum is living on his boat now, and not very experienced, when gales hit I was worried and texted him to look where the marina safety ladders are and have it in mind...
Icy pontoons were a factor in at least some of those 3 separate deaths, all liveaboards.
A chum is living on his boat now, and not very experienced, when gales hit I was worried and texted him to look where the marina safety ladders are and have it in mind...
