Manoeuvring long keel sailboat out of birth in wind - Any tips?

[Poignard]

Just pretend you meant it. No one needs to know ;-)

Notice the total ineffectiveness of the Twister's rudder when going astern.

One moves it around more in hope than expectation!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

My long keeler has no engine, and therefore never really goes astern. My experiences are therefore mostly second hand, as watchful crew. I sail bigger classics whenever invited. Hope to be part of the crew of a certain 57ft gaffer next summer. The owner previously had an 8M. That, he was spectacularly good at. All achieved by having the confidence to go quickly, I think. Many years of experience in parking boats for a living. he just seemed to know exactly how long it would take for the rudder to bite, plus exactly what effect prop walk was going to have. A joy to be crew for, in that respect. All I can suggest is practise. Reverse around an empty anchorage, for instance.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

My long keeler has no engine, and therefore never really goes astern. My experiences are therefore mostly second hand, as watchful crew. I sail bigger classics whenever invited. Hope to be part of the crew of a certain 57ft gaffer next summer. The owner previously had an 8M. That, he was spectacularly good at. All achieved by having the confidence to go quickly, I think. Many years of experience in parking boats for a living. he just seemed to know exactly how long it would take for the rudder to bite, plus exactly what effect prop walk was going to have. A joy to be crew for, in that respect. All I can suggest is practise. Reverse around an empty anchorage, for instance.

lol. Thanks for the tip!

 

[Supertramp]

My long keeler has no engine, and therefore never really goes astern. My experiences are therefore mostly second hand, as watchful crew. I sail bigger classics whenever invited. Hope to be part of the crew of a certain 57ft gaffer next summer. The owner previously had an 8M. That, he was spectacularly good at. All achieved by having the confidence to go quickly, I think. Many years of experience in parking boats for a living. he just seemed to know exactly how long it would take for the rudder to bite, plus exactly what effect prop walk was going to have. A joy to be crew for, in that respect. All I can suggest is practise. Reverse around an empty anchorage,

Agree that practise helps understand your boat and how the amount and duration of reverse affect prop walk. I also agree that you need to be definite and commit at the right point. But I still prefer slow and steady using wind or tide to your advantage in confined marina channels. I would like to see a video of a 57ft gaffer doing it quickly, preferably not too near my boat!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Agree that practise helps understand your boat and how the amount and duration of reverse affect prop walk. I also agree that you need to be definite and commit at the right point. But I still prefer slow and steady using wind or tide to your advantage in confined marina channels. I would like to see a video of a 57ft gaffer doing it quickly, preferably not too near my boat!

If the opportunity presents itself I will video it. Quite difficult with a mooring line in your hand, waiting to step off! Besides the slack jawed amazement at the guy’s audacity that is.

 

[Poignard]

Whilst there may be long-keeled yachts that can be steered astern, it is a fact that a Twister cannot.

This is nothing to do with speed or the skipper's nerve, it is due to the underwater shape of the hull, the size and shape of the rudder, and the effect of windage on the bow. Probably the last thing on Kim Holman's mind when he designed the Twister in 1966 was how well his beautiful creation would steer astern

Speed is largely irrelevant anyway because usually there is insufficient room behind the boat in a marina in which to build up any significant speed astern. If one was not in a confined space, what would be the point of going astern anyway?

The best one can aim for is to get out of the berth, into the middle of the fairway, without touching anything, and from there to make a tight turn towards the exit.

If the wind is blowing towards the dead end so that a turn cannot be made, one is left with three options:

1. go astern in a series of curved trajectories (caused by prop-walk), straightening up every now and then with a burst of power ahead and the rudder over;

2. run a small sail up a backstay to overcome the bow windage;

3. (my preferred method) let go a weight on a line from the bow to act a temporary anchor that keeps the bow facing the wind. Then motor ahead while recovering the weight.

 

[Refueler]

Its fine saying practice and see what boat does ... but generally marinas are a different ball game as the water flow ... windage etc. are different to areas where you can practice ...
IMHO - you learn from each berthing until sufficient to allow you fair degree of success ..

I see Poignard is using already something I suggested earlier ... a weight of the boat to help control it ...

Believe it or not ... Marine Colleges - when I was attending - teach 'Short turn' of ships ... that is ship in a narrow channel or fairway ... using anchor. The secret to success ? Know which way prop walk AHEAD and ASTERN, know when rudder takes over from prop walk, keep speed down, good anchor handlers !!!

 

[fredrussell]

Would it be an oversimplification to say these sort of boats are crap at going backwards because when they were designed marinas were not commonplace and boats generally were kept on mid-river moorings?

 

[Poignard]

Would it be an oversimplification to say these sort of boats are crap at going backwards because when they were designed marinas were not commonplace and boats generally were kept on mid-river moorings?

I'm sure you're right. It wasn't something a designer had to think about.

 

[Poignard]

Article in PBO by Tom Cunliffe

Going astern with twin, long and fin keels

 

[BabaYaga]

The best one can aim for is to get out of the berth, into the middle of the fairway, without touching anything, and from there to make a tight turn towards the exit.

If the wind is blowing towards the dead end so that a turn cannot be made

I find that it is often possible to make that tight turn even if the wind is blowing down the dead end. What is needed is a sufficient amount of room from where you start to the spot where the turn must be made. Also you need to build enough speed (which is scary going down a dead end with wind on your back) to give the boat the inertia required to make the 180 degree turn into the wind. Of course, some marinas are just too tight in relation to the boat's 'turning circle', but making that judgement can only be based on a lot of practice of this manoeuvre in various conditions. Practice will build confidence.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

In the end, all sailboats have their drawbacks and idiosyncrasies. Mine will go backwards and steer wherever you want it til the 2nd coming. It's cross winds that spoil our party. We have a lot of fat fenders, and sometimes warp the boat to where we want her using winches if necessary. People may laugh, but arriving and leaving without damage is all that matters. Dignity rarely lasts more than 5 minutes anyway.

 

[Poignard]

I find that it is often possible to make that tight turn even if the wind is blowing down the dead end. What is needed is a sufficient amount of room from where you start to the spot where the turn must be made. Also you need to build enough speed (which is scary going down a dead end with wind on your back) to give the boat the inertia required to make the 180 degree turn into the wind. Of course, some marinas are just too tight in relation to the boat's 'turning circle', but making that judgement can only be based on a lot of practice of this manoeuvre in various conditions. Practice will build confidence.

Here is a picture of a marina:





Let's suppose the wind is blowing from the bottom of the picture, ie towards the dead ends.

You are telling me that, having backed my Twister out of her berth, I should then take a run at the dead end and, when I have built up a good speed, perform a high speed turn in a channel two boat lengths or less wide?

 

[dunedin]

My long keeler has no engine, and therefore never really goes astern. My experiences are therefore mostly second hand, as watchful crew. I sail bigger classics whenever invited. Hope to be part of the crew of a certain 57ft gaffer next summer. The owner previously had an 8M. That, he was spectacularly good at. All achieved by having the confidence to go quickly, I think. Many years of experience in parking boats for a living. he just seemed to know exactly how long it would take for the rudder to bite, plus exactly what effect prop walk was going to have. A joy to be crew for, in that respect. All I can suggest is practise. Reverse around an empty anchorage, for instance.

I watched a “very experienced” skipper of a gaffer manoevering onto a fuel berth “with confidence” in the Canaries. He took the pumps clean off the fuel berth with his bowsprit and was going to be impounded for doing so.
Slow is pro.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Here is a picture of a marina:

View attachment 169136



Let's suppose the wind is blowing from the bottom of the picture, ie towards the dead ends.

You are telling me that, having backed my Twister out of her berth, I should then take a run at the dead end and, when I have built up a good speed, perform a high speed turn in a channel two boat lengths or less wide?

View attachment 169138

All I can say to those who have never done it is that you will never know the joy, relief and sheer pleasure in successfully extracting a long keel boat from such a situation as Poignard illustrates.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

From Tom Cunliffe‘s trials, he’d be in there til the wind drops to nothing. Or warp out.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I watched a “very experienced” skipper of a gaffer manoevering onto a fuel berth “with confidence” in the Canaries. He took the pumps clean off the fuel berth with his bowsprit and was going to be impounded for doing so.
Slow is pro.

Yes, seen less drastic cock ups myself. The owner of Kelpie gets given certain latitude is choosing his berth. I daresay that is a big contributor to his success. A berth with access, and an exit plan

 

[Poignard]

All I can say to those who have never done it is that you will never know the joy, relief and sheer pleasure in successfully extracting a long keel boat from such a situation as Poignard illustrates.

And that tingling sensation as blood starts to return to one's whitened knuckles . .

 

[BabaYaga]

Let's suppose the wind is blowing from the bottom of the picture, ie towards the dead ends.

You are telling me that, having backed my Twister out of her berth, I should then take a run at the dead end and, when I have built up a good speed, perform a high speed turn in a channel two boat lengths or less wide?

Those channels do not seem to be uniform in breadth, but basically yes.
Of course, it is your decision whether it is possible or not, based on the situation (wind speed, wind direction, current) and your knowledge of your boat's capabilities.
I do think that making tight turns into the wind under engine is an essential manoeuvre for anyone with a long keeled boat, so well worth practicing. I fully understand that what is possible to achieve with one (long keeled) boat may not be possible with another. Many factors influence this, an example:
I sail a boat that I believe is not unlike the Twister in size and characteristics. I have had it for over 40 years. In 2006 the original 13 hp engine was replaced by a 20 hp Beta. Two handed fixed prop by a three handed feathering. This change made a huge difference to my boat's ability of 'turning on the spot' by using prop walk. Still same boat, same skipper.

 

[14K478]

My long keeler has no engine, and therefore never really goes astern. My experiences are therefore mostly second hand, as watchful crew. I sail bigger classics whenever invited. Hope to be part of the crew of a certain 57ft gaffer next summer. The owner previously had an 8M. That, he was spectacularly good at. All achieved by having the confidence to go quickly, I think. Many years of experience in parking boats for a living. he just seemed to know exactly how long it would take for the rudder to bite, plus exactly what effect prop walk was going to have. A joy to be crew for, in that respect. All I can suggest is practise. Reverse around an empty anchorage, for instance.

Here is a picture of a marina:

View attachment 169136



Let's suppose the wind is blowing from the bottom of the picture, ie towards the dead ends.

You are telling me that, having backed my Twister out of her berth, I should then take a run at the dead end and, when I have built up a good speed, perform a high speed turn in a channel two boat lengths or less wide?

View attachment 169138

I can do that one - in a normal long keeled boat.

Back slowly out of the berth and just open the throttle, still in reverse, and she will go backwards upwind, quite reliably