Manoeuvring long keel sailboat out of birth in wind - Any tips?

Poignard said:
Duncan Wells bow bridle technique helps because you can have power on before you slip so you quickly get out into the fairway before prop walk and bow windage have their wicked way with you
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we have started to use the bow bridle to exit a marina finger berth, even for a bilge keel Moody, we have loads of prop walk and the stern seeks the wind quite quick, and this technique seems to give us some control. I spoke to Duncan once about how best to exit a certain berth his advice was not to go there again!
 
LittleSister's posts are spot on. As sound advice as you'll find anywhere .
I went from a finkeeler that could be driven around in astern like a car (Sadler32) - which was often the best way down a finger and into a berth - to a long-keeler that goes astern just fine, but which way it goes is down to the boat. Control of direction on leaving the dock is generally possible but rate less so; once a turn is established (the direction of which you can influence to some degree from a standstill) it cannot be changed by rudder once moving. However, that still leaves you the options of springs, windage, propwalk and inertia (ie increasing the swing with power to increase the angle of turn if it so favours the situation). There are may ways to spin a cat...(sorry, I'll get my coat)

I particularly endorse LS's advice re springs and warping - though not always handy solo. Very useful practice, and not just for long-keelers. I usually solo and need to spring - or at least warp the boat half out of its berth before commiting to a departure lest I collect my neighbours' davits and transom excresences with my pulpit as the inevitable swing ensues.
Helping yourself by explaining your boat to the marina and getting a manoeuvre-friendly berth is excellent advice . I find marinas almost always helpful on this . Makes life easier before you even start.
Bursts of power often work for me rather than constant thrust, followed by the rudder doing its job in less disturbed water - sometimes rather stacatto but the bottom line is learn what the boat will do for you, and exploit it. Using the wind is key.
My boat responds (just - and v slowly) to tiny rudder deflections at a couple of Kts in astern but more than a spoke of deflection and the rudder stalls and that mode of control is lost. Once the bow starts to swing appreciably I have to ride out the ensuing ever-tightening hook-turn and have to use it to my advantage unless I can cancel it with fwd thrust or propwalk - all that is left at that point... I may plan an exit that way - it's perfectly good practice to deliberately induce a swing that rudder cannot control that will point you in the right direction and use propwalk/thrust to cancel it. There are several tools apart from rudder in your toolbox. Don't knock propwalk - it is absolutely invaluable in close quarters. I'd be lost without it.

And ultimately, maybe solo, there will be times when you just have to watch the AWBs leave in a stiff crosswind and say to yourself, "Not tonight, Josephine". Ot maybe if with a handy crew you'll rig a springline across the dock, brief carefully and pull off a blinder to muted aplause...
Major Clanger's post #14 is v good advice.

Med mooring? For me - totally impossible unless I used a kedge to go bows to (which I almost always favour in any case) but thankfully Devil's evolutions like that are scarce in UK. Be aware of your limitations. Some things you just cannot do - and recognise them! But you won't know unless you've spend several (many) hours out in the estuary trying against a pontoon or buoy...so get out there an practice, you'll be surprised, I promise!
At risk of banging on, this isn't something to just spend a afternoon practicing. This is something to spend a couple of whole days practicing, in all different tide and wind states. Again and again. Whatever you do don't stop the first time you get it right. Do it another half dozen times again to prove it and find how and why it can go wrong, and how to recover from that. If it doesn't go wrong there are only two possible conclusions; either you are the perfect skipper of you simply havent tried enough times... So go out and do the same again tomorrow.

I'm discovering (surprise!) that the more you practice the easier it seems to get. The trick is knowing what the boat will do for you and how to take advantage of it, and there's only one way to find that out. Go out there and discover!

Or maybe borrow someone like LittleSister or anther long-keel instructor to show you how. It would be well worth the effort.

All the above is just opinion of course. One thing I'm certain of, a proper sailor does not need a bow thruster! Especially on an AWB.
 
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A friend of mine used to own a long keel Robert Clark; it was quite difficult to maneuver in reverse, so much so that the previous owner had called up Mr. Clark (probably in his retirement home) to ask him about it. To which the eminent MR. Clark responded:
"I design my boats to go forward rather than backwards." End of conversation.
My friend and I finally devised a system of using springs and the end of the finger as a pivot to get her into her berth.
 
I've had mine 28 years and know what my boat will do with various inputs.
Getting into tight spaces or picking up a mooring is easy once you know the characteristics of your boat. Being able to coast in neutral for a fair distance and still being able to steer at half a knot makes life very easy.
A friend bought a boat that was much larger than his previous so was a little apprehensive picking up his new mooring so I took the helm.
That's when I discovered not all long keels are equal as this one became very difficult to steer once the boat speed was down to 2-3 knts.
When single handed on a finger berth I put my boat in reverse on tick over which means very slow acceleration then walk it back and pull bow in to or push away from the finger depending which direction I wish to go which certainly helps the boat to turn.
I don't think I need to mention the consequences of what would happen if you failed to get on the boat ?
 
Slowboat35 said:
One thing I'm certain of, a proper sailor does not need a bow thruster! Especially on an AWB
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Leaving the argument over whether a proper sailor would be on an AWB for another thread :giggle: , there have been times when I'd have loved to have a bow thruster on several different boats, including my little Snapdragon when wind and tide conspire, but I freely admit, I'm not a "proper sailor", I'm a pragmatist. Anything that makes life easier and insurance claims less likely sounds like a good idea.
 
Stemar said:
Leaving the argument over whether a proper sailor would be on an AWB for another thread :giggle: , there have been times when I'd have loved to have a bow thruster on several different boats, including my little Snapdragon when wind and tide conspire, but I freely admit, I'm not a "proper sailor", I'm a pragmatist. Anything that makes life easier and insurance claims less likely sounds like a good idea.
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Perhaps the differences are between purist, traditionalist and pragmatist?

I carry a liferaft, grab bag, wooden bungs etc all in case I get into a bad situation. My bow thruster (came with the boat) is in the same camp - check it works each trip, use only to recover a disaster. Like a reliable engine it's good to know its there. Its our skills, knowledge and experience that are really necessary.
 
requiem said:
How did you rig the spring? The method that comes to mind is a line from your stern quarter to the end of the pontoon that you quickly snub once you are ready to induce rotation. A variation if additional rotation is needed might be to run it from a midship cleat opposite the pontoon, aft around the stern, and thence to the end of the pontoon, but you'd want to be particularly mindful of its placement.
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From the stern, to the end of the pontoon. Issue was, whilst it does it's job fine without wind, the wind in this case was still pushing the bow around, so I just went sideways and to the left (opposite to where I wanted to go)
:)
 
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Thanks again for the suggestions.

I line with some of the comments above and some further reading, I came across this idea. I'd kind of thought about it before, but I think, in these particular weather conditions with this boat and after thinking about it again, this is maybe the simplest and safest route given the wind would be pushing the bow in the desired direction on leaving and rudder authority/control ahead on this boat is good.

 
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Rappey said:
There does come a time when prop walk,wind direction and tide all transpire against you and your not getting out unless you have skilled crew or other help.
A 10m channel is quite small. How long is your boat ?
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25ft - There really isn't a lot of wiggle room :)
 
Hi pjsgsy, i have a small ( 21' 9" length on deck ) 3.5 ton full keel sail boat with an 8hp. long shaft outboard on the transom. I come onto my slip bow first as i find it really difficult to go astern. Then before i next go out i turn the boat around ( choosing a calm day ), using the method shown by Robert Hall, the person in your utube clip. It has really made a difference in making getting back onto my mooring less nerve wracking. Good luck with your endevours. Oz.
 
Hi pjsgsy . That 10 metre distance between boat sterns gives you very little space to manoever. You don't say how big your boat is but even a 7m boat has little to spare if anything goes wrong. If you are in a marina you should ask for the marina rib to assist by pushing or pulling your boat to turn it facing so that you can motor forwards along the fairway. The marineros where I kept my boat were very good at getting boats out of tight spots and the few long keeled boats were routinely helped, sometimes by tying the rib alongside and using its powerful outboard for both propulsion and steering.
 
pjsgsy said:
Thanks again for the suggestions.

I line with some of the comments above and some further reading, I came across this idea. I'd kind of thought about it before, but I think, in these particular weather conditions with this boat and after thinking about it again, this is maybe the simplest and safest route given the wind would be pushing the bow in the desired direction on leaving and rudder authority/control ahead on this boat is good.

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That's pretty standard warping the boat around (and now you know why I suggested you make sure you have a line that is long enough to go all the way around the boat!).

In my opinion that was not particularly impressively executed. I wouldn't want anyone filming my efforts, I admit, but neither would I be putting them putting them on YouTube as how to do it! It's good that it's up there, though, so that people can see the general principle of something so useful but rarely seen in practice these days, and demonstrating that it can be done single handed (easier with a good crew, but harder with a bad one!).

It was also a good tip to consider perhaps using a centre cleat or the shroud deck fitting (chainplate), rather than the bow cleat, on the opposite (to start with) side of the boat. Why will become clear when you try it out. (Though some people will be having kittens about the idea of tying a warp to the chainplate, not to mention his using the shrouds and, especially, the safety lines, to pull the boat along. (Personally, I don't have a problem with any of those, subject to appropriate care and consideration of the vulnerabilities, especially of the safety lines and their stanchions.)

Note also that it would have been very difficult to do it in that way had there been a strong wind from astern the original boat position, but relatively easy to do had the wind been on the bow to start with (when you would be less likely to need it, paradoxically!).

Here's another tip: Using just a length of line, check the distance between the finger you regularly berth on and the finger the other side of your neighbouring boat (that has no finger between you), and compare that to the length of your boat at pontoon height (ignoring higher overhangs). With a smaller boat, and if you are lucky, you may find you have enough room, on occasions when your neighbour's boat is absent, to spin the boat within the area contained between the fingers. This will give you a whole additional set of cleats and standing positions from which you can control the boat, and also means you can take your time and not worry about blocking any traffic that may want to pass up or down the aisle between the pontoons.

Even if there's not enough room to turn, if your neighbouring boat is absent it may be advantageous in particular wind or current conditions to warp your boat across, staying facing the same way, to make leaving the berth or arriving back at it, easier.
 
Hi I sail a full keel 41 heavy boat with wicked kick to port (most of the time) solo . My preferred method is to set up a long enough stern spring to see me out of the finger, either using pontoon cleats or neighbours cleats (thinking about the retrieving line /direction and floating line). If possible I man handle the boat backwards with rudder over in the desired direction /or use tickover correcting postion of boat with lines. Then when clear either use prop walk or snub line to get the desired postion... Just make sure you have the spring line coiled correctly and clear of any snags.. Can be done with a fair bit of wind also... Or use marinas help or both practise while they are close by lol
 
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