main sheet traveler

[terryo]

Good morning all,
Can any one offer advice on main sheet travelers, I have a Colvic 26 sailer
she has no main traveler just a fixed piont at the stern, firstly is there any advantage in not having a traveler for the main and if not would a simple fixed rail as far aft as poss suffice.

Thanks in advance
Terry O

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sunnyseeker]

You only need a traveler if your seriously racing, other wise they just get in the way. All they do is help you twist off the main whilst keeping it centred when going up wind, giving you an extra degree...maybe if your jibs perfect and sheeted very close. On a cruising boat you dont need one.

<hr width=100% size=1>Oh ye who have your eyeballs vexed and tired feast them upon the wideness of the sea

 

[capt_courageous]

As Sunnyseeker says I have never found the need for a traveler- strictly a cruiser. I have recently converted my transom mounted traveller to a centre haul one. My first two boats were centre haul and I got used to it. I kept getting caught up in the main sheet when it was transom mounted.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[terryo]

Many thanks for your help, I,ll leave well alone.

Regards
Terry O

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Talbot]

I would disagree with the previous two, in that there is a point to the mainsheet traveller. Certainly on my boat, I would not be without, as it enables a much better sheet lead and provides a clear arc for people to sit in the cockpit even if there is a chance of a gybe.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

There are two things:

If you have a solid vang then there is not much service for a traveller on a cruising boat. The vang holds the boom down. There are many fast non AWB cruising boats being built now with no travellers (a look at Elliot Marine's internet site will show some).

If your mainsheet purchase is at the end of the boom, then solid vang or not, the use of a traveller is limited. That is because the arc that the boom swings through and the traveller be adjusted so that the sheeting purchase is straight down is normally quite limited. That especially when compared with a boom where the sheeting is further forward on the boom (which increases the boom stresses too, of course).

Unless you are a fanatic and are able to get some useful travel on a stern mounted traveller, then I would leave it as it is.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[DanTribe]

I find two very good reasons for mine.
1/ You can track the boom to one side out of the way to give more room in the cockpit for drinking.
2/ Mine runs across the centre of the cockpit at shin level, so I get lots of excercise getting my leg over.
Dan

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[flaming]

I disagree. A decent traveller is a very useful addition to any boat. In addition to being able to better control both the shape and the angle of the sail it also helps prevent damage. To really flatten a sail going to windward using only the kicker you would have to put a LOT of force through it, wheras with much better leverage the main sheet is in a better positon to flatten the sail and tension the leech. The traveller is then used to adjust the angle of the sail.
Another use of a traveller is often seen in gusty conditions where the average wind strength does not require a reef, but the boat becomes over powered in the gusts. The sail can then be set up to provide enough power in the lulls with the traveller in the middle of the track and when a gust hits simply dropping the car down the track should spill enough wind to keep the boat on its feet. It's generally easier to pull the traveler back up the track than to sheet in a lot of sheet that you dumped in a gust.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

But most of us do none of those things in a cruising boat - lets cruise across the Atlantic, you can be the traveller man all the way, I'll look after the autopilot.

In the end, everyone to ones own - if one enjoys cruising and attending a traveller all ones time, then go to it even if the geometry means its use is limited by being under the boom end and at the stern as the posted question is about, but I suspect that most of us do not. In recent years I have seen big fast cruising boats with single part high modulus mainsheets (no purchase) coming from the boom to a block on deck and straight to a mainsheet winch. These are specialist boats far removed from what most of us have and are designed for performance cruising with the ability to outsail weather systems, etc. If Greg Elliot (he is a speed freak, and refer to the internet site I mentioned before), among others, thinks it is ok to have no traveller on performance cruisers, then I have to say that is good enough for me (we do have a a solid vang and long traveller - approx 3 m long at central boom sheeting - but rarely manage it).

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[alanporter]

I have a Westerly Renown with no traveller. The main sheet is connected centrally in the cockpit. To sheet closer for going windward I attach a loop of line around the sheets and cleat it to the cockpit coaming. Works perfectly and a thousand times cheaper than fitting a traveller.

<hr width=100% size=1>Alan Porter

 

[aitchw]

My traveller is cleated off in the centre most of the time. Can't say I would miss it if it wasn't there.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tome]

John

I'm generally in agreement with you, but beg to differ this time. I have a traveller ahead of the cockpit and it is one of my most useful sail trimming aids. Going to windward in light winds I can easily coax an extra 1/2 knot out of her by bringing the boom across to provide more twist. When the helm gets too heavy, my first 'reef' is to drop the traveller to de-power the main and I can feel an immediate lightening of the helm. When motor-sailing with the main I use the traveller again to put some extra twist into the main and so put the sail to sleep when going directly to windward.

I've modified my arrangement to bring the traveller control lines back to a pair of clutches in the cockpit and make much use of it. I recall TK, when sailing onboard, telling me that he makes similiar use of the traveller on his Twister.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Hi Tom

We may not be far apart (heres hoping /forums/images/icons/smile.gif) as I would agree with you for a boat with central sheeting on the boom and without a rigid vang, and maybe that is your case. I only talked about (my 12:35 22Aug post) rigid vang cruising boats and the case of the poster's where he states that the mainsheet is at the stern of a small non racing vessel (however, I think the Colvic 26 actually has the end of the boom well forward over the central cockpit but would not be sure on that).

What we find works on our own boat (with a rigid vang and traveller forward of the cockpit) is that with the traveller car amidships easing the mainsheet with the vang set up hard enough to just keep the leech twist ok is little different to dropping the car to leeward instead and keeping the twist right with the mainsheet. We have a semi balanced spade rudder so probably the helm weight does not build up so quickly due to leeway (as opposed to rig imbalance) pressure as it would with a skeg or keel hung rudder.

We rarely need to get the boom to windward but if there is no traveller it is trivial doing so by other means as the loads are light. The fast cruising boats that I mention with no travellers all have solid vangs and of the ones retaining a traveller it is often very short and I suspect mainly used for pulling the boom to windward in light winds. We find that we let the traveller down to leeward mainly only when sailing well off the wind for the simple reason of having less mainsheet draped across the deck.

While there are quite a number of travellerless fast cruising boats being designed/built here I have had a quick look for one in Europe for which photos may be found and one example is the Shipman 50 which was the European Yacht of the Year covered in the March 2004 Yachting World. It is also covered on the shipman.com site. It has a single part high modulus mainsheet going from a padeye on the cockpit floor in front of the steering pedestal to a block on the outer end of the boom then forward to the mast through the boom and back from the bottom of the mast to a stopper at the cockpit (one of the cockpit winches is used) - but it has a rigid vang.

So, perhaps we are in agreement if talking about the same thing.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tome]

John

You are right that we don't have a rigid vang, and I can see how you could use this to achieve a similiar effect to depower the main. Also, we have a skeg-hung rudder so take your point about leeway effects on a balanced spade. Our main is attached via a 4:1 purchase between the traveller and mid-boom, then forward to the mast and down aft to the cockpit via deck organiser and cockpit clutch. We use a ST winch to sheet in. Friction is our main enemy and I take a lot of trouble to minimise this.

Perhaps the reason that travellers are not so widely fitted is that people don't bother to use them (?), but I would personally modify any boat if possible to include one as it's second nature to me. We have 3 reefing points and the traveller almost adds a further 3, plus a bit of overdrive in light winds.

Agree it's much less effective with transom/boom end sheeting as it's difficult to achieve the range of travel. Perhaps we are reading off the same hymn sheet after all.

Cheers
Tom

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[flaming]

I'm not sure you're right about the geometry being limited by having the traveller at the end of the boom. Surely this is where it is most effective, as it means much lower forces than a mid boom mainsheet, otherwise you can be pretty sure that no race boat would have the traveller there!

I do see your point about atlantic cruising. And you're correct that I wouldn't trim the traveller all the way across the atlantic any more than I would all the way across the channel. However this does not mean that the correct position for the traveller car is in the middle all the way across the channel or atlantic. In fact you could argue that good sail trim is more important on longer trips than on short ones, as fairly small speed advantages can save you hours on a channel crossing or days on an atlantic crossing.

My point about being able to dump the traveller in gusty conditions was really meant to mean in situations where you may expect particulary gusty conditions and have less searoom to have dramas in. For example when sailing in a harbour or estuary. It is certainly a lot easier to dump a main when it sheets to the cockpit and not the coachroof and it is also easier to pull it back in using a traveller than the normal mainsheet as all the effort is going into moving the boom to windward and none into stretching the sail downwards.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Think you are misrepresenting my points - I referred to boats with solid vangs (in which case, for example, the leech can be tensioned by the vang and not just by the mainsheet as you say) and the case of the poster's where the boat was small and the boom end was claimed to be at the the stern (and a small bilge keeler at that, not any sort of perfomance boat).

Don't think I claimed any advantage of a mid sheeted boom over a end sheeted one with respect to forces or any other thing and if you read my posts I think you will see that I am at least reasonably well informed on such.

Perhaps in real life are you a conspiracy theorist or maybe you live up to your non de plume on here?

John

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[flaming]

I'm called flaming as a result of an amusing night when I set my mouth on fire. (Don't try it at home kids!)

Your point regarding solid vangs is interesting. Can you perhaps explain to me why a solid vang would be better at providing a downwards pull than a rope vang? Because even solid vangs use rope to provide the tension, the solid bit is simply to support the boom when the main is not doing that job, in other words to take over (at least partly) the job of a topping lift.

The point with any vang, whether solid or rope is that the mechanical leverage of being so close to the gooseneck is horrible. On our previous boat we had a very short traveller so did have to rely on the vang to get tension into the leach, in an effort to get enough we used a winch and broke it.

It's a hell of a lot easier to tension the leach using the mainsheet as it has much better leverage. Racing boats will sail upwind with the vang slack, tensioning the leach with the mainsheet and trimming the sail with the traveller. The vang will only come into play once the sheet is eased on a fetch.

I'm not suggesting that cruising boats sail the boat trimming the sails as intensively as a racing crew, just that a decent traveller opens up many more oppertunities to sail trim, allowing you much more contol over the shape of the sail. This means you will sail faster and arrive in the pub earlier. And that can't be bad!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[snowleopard]

traveler geometry

an aft traveller would have to be twice as wide as to get the same control as a central one. they are often no more than 3 ft long so don't do very much. only on racing multihulls do you see effective aft travellers, these are sometimes up to 20 ft long and can be used to flatten the main on a broad reach.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[flaming]

Re: traveler geometry

Yes you will get more movement in a mid boom traveller.

However the movement in an aft traveller is still more than usefull. If it wasn't why would race boats bother with the weight? Don't forget that if your traveller is two foot long and at the back of the boat then your boom will move two feet. That's quite a lot when going to windward.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MainlySteam]

Well I think at this stage I can only advise you to inform some of the worlds best yacht designers that they are incorrect in the rigging of many of their new generations of fast cruising boats, small and large too (for example, German Frers 44 m long "SYL") in that they are without travellers.

I am sure they will take an appropriate level of interest.

John

<hr width=100% size=1>