Mail Order Scam

[Guest]

Has anyone else noticed the 'P&P' scam. I have just ordered a Speedseal. 'P&P' charge £2.40, on arrival, one Jiffy Bag and a £1 stamp. If that is not bad enough they even added a bit for 'Gordon' + 42p VAT by my reckoning and allowing for the bag thats 170% profit or theft depending on how you view it. Make a separate order for two spare Nitrile 'o' rings which weigh in lighter than an airmail sheet and the 'P&P' is a whopping £1.76 including VAT - welcome to boaters world.

 

[JMM]

Plus the cost of somebody to pack it, and overheads such as ordering envelopes . . . and p & p is itemised on their web site!

Jon M.

 

[mtb]

I get realy pi**ed off when mail order firms charge a standard rate which means your paying twice the amount more often than not.
My carburetter side of things is mail order customers pay what I pay re postage and thats how it should be.
cheers
Mick

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boats
I want a big steel ex trawler or tug v, cheap or swap for tug

 

[l'escargot]

You should live on the Isle of Wight - regularly get told " we don't deliver outside of the UK" and recently a large company charged an extra £2 p&p for being an "offshore island", then sent the item by standard Royal Mail.
When I challenged one supplier I was told "you can't walk to an island", he was based in Kent so I wonder how long his deliveries take to Scotland if he sends them out on foot?

 

[Jacket]

OK, they have the cost of someone packaging it, but then again they don't have the costs associated with a conventional chandlery, such as a 'nice' looking shop in a visible (ie high rent) location etc.

 

[Strathglass]

It's exactly the same here, on the mainland but towards the north of Scotland. Next day usually means the next thursday.
Except BT, next day before 12 usually means between 12 and 2pm. Not all suppliers charge extra but, even Screwfix put a surcharge on.

Iain

 

[milltech]

In defence of my breed. Most of the things on my site get charged out at less than cost, I pay Parcel Force £5.99 and charge £4.95, but since the web site bands things I freely admit that you can also buy a paddle wheel for a log and pay £2.95 because that's the lowest band, and the same price posts a GPS.

Isle of Wight is another matter, we cannot post flares or lifejackets with Parcel Force and Southern Express carry those, but they charge additional for all the Islands and above the Great Glen. I have no idea why they charge me £10 for the Isle of Wight, or why Tuffnels will let me send a packet anywhere in the EU for between £12 and £20 but want £50 for the same packet to Eire. Sometimes life just ain't fair.

John

 

[andyball]

While we're complaining....why do compass watersports/ybw-marine- store charge more for a Plastimo compass than plastimo's retail price, shown in their catalogue?....

Plastimo offshore 75 compass: £50 from the above, £36 from your local chandlers (even before any discount)

 

[romany123]

somebody has to pay the packers IMHO

Dave

 

[Guest]

Purchased an anode over the phone paid by card, with Fairways Marine, Malden. First contact gave price of anode £4.80+vat, but couldnt give P&P. Second contact couldnt either, reason- they had to refer to the computer, but they assured me it, wouldnt be much.
Got the anode together with £4.50 P&P. (Stamp 84 pence, padded envelepoe 18p) pence. Rang to complain, & told they have a handling minimum.When I suggested that they should have mentioned this in relation to a £4,80 article, I got no where. When I said I would return the anode at my expense, they said if I did they would deduct a handling fee from my card. Ok, so I'm writing to Tradeing Officers etc, but what a rip off & all that hassle.
Make a note of the Company nameif you are buying small parts by mail.

 

[milltech]

Of course they should have told you, and of course they should not have charged the card without telling you, and I expect you have a case, (though I'm no legal eagle).

However, did you think you'd got an unlikely bargain when they took the order? I mean personally I would have been slightly surprised and would have known something was adrift if I discovered they would sell me a lump of lead and send it to me for such a low price. It's not to excuse them, they should know their business, and perhaps there's no reason to tell them they've got it wrong or to ask for clarification, but it would have saved time and trouble in the end.


John

 

[PBrooks]

No scam at all. Post and packing charges are regularly run at a loss by mail order companies. The stamp on a Royal Mail parcel is only one part of the cost. There is the packer, the envelope, the people and system to generate and record your order, VAT to HM government and warehouse charges etc. Also what about insurance. If the item hadn't arrived, you'd have expected a refund or replacement. All of these costs should be met by the P & P charge. Usually they're not and the P & P is subsidised by profit on the goods - unless it's a very big company with excellent carrier rates.

In practice, most mail order companies either have a single charge for P&P or a few bands, based on value of order. The lightweight items subsidise the heavier. Although this may seem unfair, until very recently the systems haven't been available to differentiate between items based on weight - and it's a lot of work to programme the system with packed weights. I'm afraid it's not going to get much better either. Recent changes by Parcel Force and Business Express mean that charges will probably rise next year for most mail order companies.

However, you do bring home two valid points about home shopping. First, everybody hates paying P & P (and it's a great incentive if you offer Free P & P). Second we all "know" the value of P&P but not usually the value of the product...

Best regards
Paul

PS How much would it have cost you to go out to the shop / chandler and buy the product?

 

[jfm]

Hold on!! & legal advice to Spits

Hang on a minute! P&P can't be justified by saying it covers the cost of the packer and processing the order. They're employees/overheads of the retailer. If you got to the till at Tesco and they add some £££ to pay for the wages of the checkout girl/boy, you'd go mad. Same applies here. P&P should cover the actual postage cost and the envelope, and not a penny more.

Ad Spits, your legal position seems quite clear. Don't bother with Trading Standards, this is a straight breach of contract. You agreed to pay the P&P. The sum of money wasnt specified, but you agreed to pay the reasonable cost of posting and packaging, whatever that turned out to be. That is in law an utterly different thing from agreeing to pay a round-sum amount of money that the retailer decides is his minimum handling fee. You never agreed to pay that. All you agreed to pay was envelope+stamp. They can only have your money if you agree to give it to them, and you didn't. So, send them a letter before action, saying if no refund you will start legal proceedings. never threaten that without meaning it, so follow through, get a writ from the small claims court and serve it on them. Write to them and tell em if they dont pay once you have judgement, you will petition for winding up of their company. Do not write "without prejudice" on your letters

 

[bedouin]

Re: Hold on!! & legal advice to Spits

Sorry - much of that advice is rubbish.

I'm not an expert but in my opinion:

(i) A mail order company can make a reasonable charge for P&P - it doesn't have to cover only stamp and envelope.

(ii) What it can't do is charge you for a service that it doesn't provide - so to add £2 to post to IoW is probably not okay

(iii) If the P&P is stated up front you can't sue about it - they provided the service you contracted for at the price you agreed to pay so they have fulfilled their contract.

(iv) Even if you did win a judgement you cannot issue a petition for winding up the company over a judgement of £10

 

[Gunfleet]

There is no VAT on postage. One day some VAT inspector is going to go through a mail order company's books and give them a terrible headache.

 

[bob_tyler]

Unfortunately "P&P" is, in Customs and Excise terms, a "service" or a "supply" (Can't remember which).

It therefore carries VAT on the lot.

When I was registered for VAT I was pulled up and rapped over the knuckles by a VAT Inspector for not charging VAT on a rail fare I had legitimately charged to a client. As I had gone to him by rail it counted as a service and VATable.

 

[Gunfleet]

Bob,
I don't want to put this post on the board because I don't want to enrage C&E. I too am vat registered and they (C&E) are right that you have to charge vat on expenses in some circumstances (not all, depends how the money was paid over). However, postage is not liable to VAT and if they tell people to levy it they are acting contrary to the treaty of Rome - not for the first time. But are you and I as individuals going to argue with them? I'm not. It's the same deal with those limits on personal imports of alcohol and tobacco C&E introduced. They're entirely wrong and contrary to European law. There are no legal limits (though it's not possible to act as a dealer without coming inside the British VAT and duty regime - and this is the loophole GOrdon Brown and his chums exploit). But I'm not going to break the limitsand give the C&E an excuse to lift my car!
John

 

[PBrooks]

Re: Hold on!! & legal advice to Spits

There has been a recent House of Lords judgement that makes mail order companies liable for VAT on carriage - regardless of the fact that there is no VAT on stamps.

P & P is just that. Postage and Packing - not just packaging. Tesco's checkout staff are equivalent to the call centre operator who takes your order. At Tesco you do the picking / packing and carrying home. With mail order, you pay for somebody to do it for you.
Best regards
Paul

 

[yoda]

Well where has this post gone. I find that some good old fashion haggling at the local chandler enables me to get any product as cheap as the mail orders and without the P&P. If you want mail order, check what it will cost for P&P and accept that the goverment of taxation is going to get yet more out of you. Somebody has to pay for his spending and we make a great target. What I like about our local chandler is that he gives the sailing club members 10% discount and then at the end of the season he gives a rebate to the club depending on how much the members have spent. The best thing about mail order is the big colour catalogues.

Yoda

 

[Joe_Cole]

Not sure that I agree with you about the catalogues. Many of them are just glossy tat, with little information. Some don't even have prices.

The best catalogue I've seen is West Marine's. Superb, but it's not practical for day to day purchases as the Atlantic gets in the way!